[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

If that's what you genuinely believe you're going to find Brexit really disappointing if it does happen.

In what way do you expect that Carl?

[passingbat]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Do you wish Britain to become a Sovereign Country again, able to decide it's own laws and have control of all things which affect it's citizens.

That works for me.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

I think the risks are higher staying in given the state of the Euro economy. The Euro WILL collapse eventually and they can't keep throwing cash at Greece forever, can they? This is more likely to trigger a global meltdown rather than leaving.

Our economy is not directly linked to the Euro (which is one of the few good decisions Normal Lamont made as chancellor). Problems in the Euro zone may still affect our economy, but they are just as likely to if we leave. As a result, our government may still have to help bail out Eurozone economies, purely to stop them causing problems in our.

Remember, the last recession was caused by problems in the US Economy. You are right in one way, this may or may not happen regardless of whether we are in Europe or not, leaving may also add to the problems.. It all depends on what deals we can negotiate when the existing ones expire.

Regarding the employment of foreign immigrants. First, I find it interesting that many of the companies who are arguing we need to leave Europe are happy to employ foreign immigrants. While I understand they do sometimes have trouble filling jobs with non-immigrants, they often don't have to employ immigrants. They often choose to. They can choose not to, but would prefer to pay less.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

Originally Posted by pip08456

In what way do you expect that Carl?

Because we still have to negotiate with other countries, regardless of whether we are in the EU or not. There will be a price for what we want. That price may well be a change in our law, or it may be something that directly affects our citizens. This is the basis of negotiation. You offer the other person something, they offer you something and you hope the price is not too high.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Stuart

Our economy is not directly linked to the Euro (which is one of the few good decisions Normal Lamont made as chancellor). Problems in the Euro zone may still affect our economy, but they are just as likely to if we leave. As a result, our government may still have to help bail out Eurozone economies, purely to stop them causing problems in our.

So the problems in Greece do not effect our fiscal policy?

Originally Posted by Stuart

Remember, the last recession was caused by problems in the US Economy.

No, it was our under regulated financial institutions (banks) entering the sub prime market in the US, they were after making fast money and bonuses (which they held onto) at the expense of their customers investments.

Originally Posted by Stuart

Because we still have to negotiate with other countries, regardless of whether we are in the EU or not. There will be a price for what we want. That price may well be a change in our law, or it may be something that directly affects our citizens. This is the basis of negotiation. You offer the other person something, they offer you something and you hope the price is not too high.

Blimey ,what kind of negotiations are you expecting

I can't think of any negotiations that we would need to be part of that would entail us changing laws or losing sovereignty ,that's why we are leaving the EU to get that stuff back

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Stuart

Because we still have to negotiate with other countries, regardless of whether we are in the EU or not. There will be a price for what we want. That price may well be a change in our law, or it may be something that directly affects our citizens. This is the basis of negotiation. You offer the other person something, they offer you something and you hope the price is not too high.

How you can even think that is beyond me. I can accept that any country negotiating a trade deal with anyone would expect a certain quality of product that meets their specifications as laid down by their laws. That is part of supply and demand. Can we do it to their specs? - Yes, they then buy from us.

The only other thing I can think of is ethical treatment of workers as is allegedly being applied in trade negotiations centred on Asia.

Please educate me on which of our laws will change due to trade negotiations that will affect the citizens (not companies) of this nation.

This evening's TNS poll is further bad news for Europhiles. It has Leave 7 points ahead, 47-40.

http://order-order.com/2016/06/14/ne...-points-ahead/

[techguyone]

We had this last time with the Jockish Ref, they all got their hopes up and then cruelly squashed at the last moment, I still think fear will edge it. (Still hoping it doesn't though)

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Stuart

Our economy is not directly linked to the Euro (which is one of the few good decisions Normal Lamont made as chancellor). Problems in the Euro zone may still affect our economy, but they are just as likely to if we leave. As a result, our government may still have to help bail out Eurozone economies, purely to stop them causing problems in our.

Remember, the last recession was caused by problems in the US Economy. You are right in one way, this may or may not happen regardless of whether we are in Europe or not, leaving may also add to the problems.. It all depends on what deals we can negotiate when the existing ones expire.

Regarding the employment of foreign immigrants. First, I find it interesting that many of the companies who are arguing we need to leave Europe are happy to employ foreign immigrants. While I understand they do sometimes have trouble filling jobs with non-immigrants, they often don't have to employ immigrants. They often choose to. They can choose not to, but would prefer to pay less.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------



Because we still have to negotiate with other countries, regardless of whether we are in the EU or not. There will be a price for what we want. That price may well be a change in our law, or it may be something that directly affects our citizens. This is the basis of negotiation. You offer the other person something, they offer you something and you hope the price is not too high.

It doesn't have to be linked to the Euro. It wasn't linked to the Dollar. If they go down so do we. In or out I believe the days of the Euro are numbered.

---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:24 ----------

Originally Posted by techguyone

We had this last time with the Jockish Ref, they all got their hopes up and then cruelly squashed at the last moment, I still think fear will edge it. (Still hoping it doesn't though)

Not at all. There was only one poll had YES ahead in the Jockanese independence referendum and that was only a small one. The rest all had NO ahead and called it right.

Originally Posted by martyh

Blimey ,what kind of negotiations are you expecting

I can't think of any negotiations that we would need to be part of that would entail us changing laws or losing sovereignty ,that's why we are leaving the EU to get that stuff back

Trade deals frequently require laws to be passed. I.E The proposed EU-Canada deal requires Canada to strength copyright law. Companies want to make sure that countries had strong/favorable/similar regulation and laws depending on the industry. Another example would be cross-border financial transactions would require both parties have sufficient data protection and regulatory standards.

Other examples would be governments demanding tougher action against internet pirates.

Originally Posted by techguyone

We had this last time with the Jockish Ref, they all got their hopes up and then cruelly squashed at the last moment, I still think fear will edge it. (Still hoping it doesn't though)

Not really. The polls closed to about 55-45, which is exactly where the final outcome was. The was one single outlier poll that put Yes fractionally ahead, within a fortnight of the vote. But that was all.

This time, with less than a fortnight to go, there is continuing movement in the polls and Leave has overtaken Remain, substantially in some polls.

This is not the same.

[techguyone]

Well maybe not the polls, but someone was worried. They sent Monsieur Brown up there to promise them the World, that's not indicative of a Gov't non-concerned about the result.

[ianch99]

(in the immortal voice of Corporal Frazer)

Wur Doomed ..

Originally Posted by Damien

Trade deals frequently require laws to be passed. I.E The proposed EU-Canada deal requires Canada to strength copyright law. Companies want to make sure that countries had strong/favorable/similar regulation and laws depending on the industry. Another example would be cross-border financial transactions would require both parties have sufficient data protection and regulatory standards.

If you are using trade deals as an example then any change will be mutually beneficial and certainly won't require us giving up sovereignty,Stuart made it sound as if we would still be forced to give up sovereignty and change our laws to suit others which quite clearly is never going to be the case if we leave the EU .We ,as a nation, will decide what we accept and don't accept ,we will no longer have the EU deciding for us .

Originally Posted by martyh

If you are using trade deals as an example then any change will be mutually beneficial and certainly won't require us giving up sovereignty,Stuart made it sound as if we would still be forced to give up sovereignty and change our laws to suit others which quite clearly is never going to be the case if we leave the EU .We ,as a nation, will decide what we accept and don't accept ,we will no longer have the EU deciding for us .

Why wouldn't change our laws? It's can be part of a trade deal. Maybe if we want to deal with american financial services we may have to have a bunch of laws detailing how data is dealt with, how we report it and so on. There are many other times that this is the case as well. We give up some degree of control when we join bodies such as NATO, the UN and the European Convention on Human Rights.

The more commitments you make to other nations or international bodies the more you're bound up those commitments. You've removed some ability to act completely independently but have gained something in return.

You talk about sovereignty as if it were a singular thing which you either have or you do not have. In reality hardly any nation is completely sovereign in the sense you seem to mean, i.e completely free from outside influence, but we are sovereign in the sense we can opt out of any of these examples when we want - including the EU - if we're willing to accept the consequences.