Students Rioting in London.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Masque

So students lifting steel fence panels to use as weapons along with anything else they can lay their hands and destroying public property or daubing paint on everything in sight does not constitute a riot, then please explain what the students were doing as that does not come under their right to protest under any law in any country on this planet.

Masque, I'd suggest you familiarise yourself with what 20,000 people look like in a protest. At the recent demos, there were localised areas of disorder, that is not the same as a riot. The images you saw on television were about the only scenes of violence, out of a crowd of at least 20,000. Does that really constitute a riot in the greater scheme of things?
If so, then it was merely a small riot. If only a few thousand police can manage to keep their form without water cannon or rubber bullets against a group of 20,000 or more, then it really can't be that much of a riot.

---------- Post added at 08:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 ----------

Originally Posted by Masque

Are you for real.

Make an educated guess.
I'm at work now so can't provide any links for streaming media, but I can do so later if you wish.
Youtube search "greek riot dog" for some interesting clips. They use petrol bombs, explosives, and anything they can get their hands on - and these rioters obviously come prepared. Snooker balls and urine bags are childs play to the modern aspiring mainland European rioter.

---------- Post added at 09:10 ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

where the hell have you been the last few weeks ,when fire extinguishers were getting thrown,fences thrown,snooker balls,fireworks,flares were being thrown ,police hit with iron bars ,graffiti daubed all over the place ,national monuments defaced, windows smashed police vans turned over ,members of the royal family attacked ..have i missed anything ? bloody hell FB you realy know how to be selective in what you see .These are facts ,they cannot be denied ,they are on video for all of time ,go on utube and type "student riots" and see how many hits you get ,alternatively you could go and join the holocaust denial society

There was ONE fire extinguisher thrown by an idiot, who was caught and charged. I never saw any police van turned over. I saw a few guys rocking one, but never saw one turned over.

I see - it wasn't a riot, it was a small localised disorder and scenes of violence which is not the same as a riot, but if it was (which it wasn't), it was a only a small riot, because the police didn't have to use water cannon or rubber bullets.

Interesting logic chain.

btw, fyi, here are some pictures of a police van being "rocked"...

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Masque, I'd suggest you familiarise yourself with what 20,000 people look like in a protest. At the recent demos, there were localised areas of disorder, that is not the same as a riot. The images you saw on television were about the only scenes of violence, out of a crowd of at least 20,000. Does that really constitute a riot in the greater scheme of things?
If so, then it was merely a small riot. If only a few thousand police can manage to keep their form without water cannon or rubber bullets against a group of 20,000 or more, then it really can't be that much of a riot.

---------- Post added at 08:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 ----------


Make an educated guess.
I'm at work now so can't provide any links for streaming media, but I can do so later if you wish.
Youtube search "greek riot dog" for some interesting clips. They use petrol bombs, explosives, and anything they can get their hands on - and these rioters obviously come prepared. Snooker balls and urine bags are childs play to the modern aspiring mainland European rioter.

Good ,i'm pleased it is just childs play ,i'm pleased the police have managed to contain a small riot and stop it escalating into a large greek style riot ,that means they are doing a sterling job ..don't you think ,or do you want to see them escalate ?.

I don't know if you realise it but the police as part of their riot training look at riots such as you have used as an example and have developed techniques ,such as kettling to stop them escalating .I'm sure Derek or anyone else with experience in this sort of thing ,including people who have served in N Ireland with attest to the fact that it only takes a few individuals to mix with genuine protesters to spark a violent riot and if not contained willl very quickly escalate into a full fledged violent riot where death and serious injury can result .This is what the police are tasked with preventing and if a few students get a bit squashed ,bruised or generally inconvenienced then tough they will have to deal with it

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Hugh

I see - it wasn't a riot, it was a small localised disorder and scenes of violence which is not the same as a riot, but if it was (which it wasn't), it was a only a small riot, because the police didn't have to use water cannon or rubber bullets.

Interesting logic chain.

Logic can get you into trouble, and if you open your eyes for a moment you'll see it is actually you who is using logic, not me.
Logic is used by the simple mind to understand a complex environment.
I don't use logic, I see events for what they are.
If you think localised acts of disorder is a riot then boy are you in for a shock when you see a proper riot in the streets of London.

---------- Post added at 09:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Good ,i'm pleased it is just childs play ,i'm pleased the police have managed to contain a small riot and stop it escalating into a large greek style riot ,that means they are doing a sterling job ..don't you think ,or do you want to see them escalate ?.

I don't know if you realise it but the police as part of their riot training look at riots such as you have used as an example and have developed techniques ,such as kettling to stop them escalating .I'm sure Derek or anyone else with experience in this sort of thing ,including people who have served in N Ireland with attest to the fact that it only takes a few individuals to mix with genuine protesters to spark a violent riot and if not contained willl very quickly escalate into a full fledged violent riot where death and serious injury can result .This is what the police are tasked with preventing and if a few students get a bit squashed ,bruised or generally inconvenienced then tough they will have to deal with it

Wow, what a blinkered perception you have.
The REASON it didn't escalate, wasn't because of the police, it was because...wait for it....most of the protesters were there for peaceful protest and had no interest in any violence whatsoever !
The rioters became violent AFTER the kettle, and broke out of the last demo kettle early on in the evening. The vast majority of the people left in the kettle (till as late as 1 am) were peaceful demonstrators.

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Logic can get you into trouble, and if you open your eyes for a moment you'll see it is actually you who is using logic, not me.
Logic is used by the simple mind to understand a complex environment.
I don't use logic, I see events for what they are.
If you think localised acts of disorder is a riot then boy are you in for a shock when you see a proper riot in the streets of London.

Don't you see that as a bit of problem ?

Originally Posted by Sparkle

If you think localised acts of disorder is a riot then boy are you in for a shock when you see a proper riot in the streets of London.

You may not mean to give the impression, but it would almost seem you are looking forward to them if they happen.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Hugh

You may not mean to give the impression, but it would almost seem you are looking forward to them if they happen.

No I don't want to see that for real, but I do wish some people could at least imagine what it would look like.

Originally Posted by martyh

Don't you see that as a bit of problem ?

Obviously not - why think things through to a logical conclusion when you can use polemic and diatribes support your position; you never have to justify anything then....

It just is, OK!

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Logic can get you into trouble, and if you open your eyes for a moment you'll see it is actually you who is using logic, not me.
Logic is used by the simple mind to understand a complex environment.
I don't use logic, I see events for what they are.
If you think localised acts of disorder is a riot then boy are you in for a shock when you see a proper riot in the streets of London.

---------- Post added at 09:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 ----------



Wow, what a blinkered perception you have.
The REASON it didn't escalate, wasn't because of the police, it was becase...wait for it....most of the protesters were there for peaceful protest and had no interest in any violenc whatsoever !
The rioters became violent AFTER the kettle, and broke out of the last demo kettle early on in the evening. The only people left in the kettle (till as late as 1 am) were peaceful demonstrators.

You'll have to excuse me while i go a find a brick wall to bang my head against ...oooh look here's one

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

No I don't want to see that for real, but I do wish some people could at least imagine what it would look like.

Are you really for real as what you are saying is that basically you condone the out of control violence used by the protesters which went over the top to any normal minded person.

I would fully condone the use of Baton Rounds and Water Cannon to control such crowds if and when required and up to now they have been lucky that the police can only use horses to try and control the rabble.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by martyh

You'll have to excuse me while i go a find a brick wall to bang my head against ...oooh look here's one

Myself and some other forum members would recommend putting one of these on your list to Santa before engaging some people in a debate.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by martyh

You'll have to excuse me while i go a find a brick wall to bang my head against ...oooh look here's one

bbbbut that fits your definition of rioting

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by martyh

Don't you see that as a bit of problem ?

Ah, do you not understand logic for what it truly is ? Not surprising as most people do not.
Think outside the box. Lose the preconditioning for a moment.

When you base something, on something else, which is itself based upon something else, do you know what you have?
Often times, you've "Lost all context" - is what you have.

Its fine in mathematics, but in Law and topical issues it just creates a mess.
Logic is used for mere convenience, to simplify things - but if logic is used when a situation cannot be further simplified then problems get created.

This is why it is possible in Law (for instance) for someone to be sent to prison for a minor offense, but yet someone else can be let off with community service for murder. But when you stand back and see the whole picture for what it is; you see the madness.

It all boils down to LOGIC. Its best to steer clear of it, and just see a situation for what it truly is, and that doesn't involve a logic sequence.
I suggest to steer clear of labels too, especially grey area labels such as "riot". By using suck labels, the grey becomes black (by default) and the process continues. Labels often lead to other assumptions being made, and eventually to lack of context.
Just look at the religious debates for some fine examples there.
"If god is onimpotent, then can he create a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it?"; therefore God cannot exist.

What we had at the last demo was 20,000 people, a minority of people bent on violence. Some were students, some were not. Some police instigating violence, and some at the receiving end. Some biases reporting, some non-biased reporting.
Thats what it was, and thats all it was.

---------- Post added at 09:45 ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 ----------

Originally Posted by papa smurf

bbbbut that fits your definition of rioting

[Derek]

Personally I think we should avoid the armchair experts who think because other countries are more radical and violent we don't know what a riot is and go with the current legal definition ( In England anyway )

In English Law Riot forms part of the Public Order Act 1986 under section 1.
The Public Order Act 1986 s.1 states:
1) Where twelve or more persons who are present together use or threaten unlawful violence for a common purpose and the conduct of them (taken together) is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his personal safety, each of the persons using unlawful violence for the common purpose is guilty of riot.
2) It is immaterial whether or not the twelve or more use or threaten unlawful violence simultaneously.
3) The common purpose may be inferred from conduct.
4) No person of reasonable firmness need actually be, or be likely to be, present at the scene.
5) Riot may be committed in private as well as in public places.

I'd say the scenes we have seen count as a riot so we can move on.

---------- Post added at 09:50 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------

Originally Posted by Sparkle

but yet someone else can be let off with community service for murder.

except murder carries a mandatory life sentence...

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Derek

Myself and some other forum members would recommend putting one of these on your list to Santa before engaging some people in a debate.

ok

will you continue with your usual method