Britain outside the EU

Originally Posted by ianch99

I really don't think Andrew is trying to convince you of anything, I suspect that he knows it's a lost cause Your use of the extravagant vocabulary ("supra-national body", " far-flung corners of Europe") is just distraction. The essential takeaway is that before 2016 we were legally required to maintain EU water quality standards and now with our new found "democratic freedoms", we are not longer made to enforce standards and so we don't.

The ultra-sovereign dogma trotted out when anyone raises the damage leaving the EU is amusing. Before 2016, no one cared about leaving the EU:

Only 1% of Brits cared much about the EU before the 2016 Brexit vote



The con job sold to the British public was off the chart, remarkable in how so many were persuaded to vote against their best interests. Of course, we always get: "yes but ... sovereignty" wheeled out but you can't eat sovereignty or go swimming in it

But you can use it to hold politicians accountable. Whether we do so or not is up to all of us. There’s nothing distracting about the phrase ‘supra-national’ - it is the very heart of the principle. The proposition was that Brexit is to blame for pollution incidents in the UK but that is obvious nonsense. As we are outside the EU it is our regulatory regime that is the sole factor at play. If our regulations are inadequate, the solution is to pester our politicians to fix it, not to abnegate responsibility in favour of a foreign bureaucracy with the power to extract money from the British economy in order to spend it on projects in Eastern Europe (or Ursula Von Der Lying’s private jet, take your pick).

Everything in the Lib Dem press release lurking behind the report in today’s ’I’ can ultimately be solved by British politicians enacting regulations with teeth, or if they won’t do so, by replacing them with ones that will. Bleating on about the ability of a foreign organisation’s willingness to swoop in and do it for us is a waste of time.

Originally Posted by ianch99

The con job sold to the British public was off the chart

LOL, still a bitter remainer then.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Paul

LOL, still a bitter remainer then.

You happy then? Guess you must be ...

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

But you can use it to hold politicians accountable. Whether we do so or not is up to all of us. There’s nothing distracting about the phrase ‘supra-national’ - it is the very heart of the principle. The proposition was that Brexit is to blame for pollution incidents in the UK but that is obvious nonsense. As we are outside the EU it is our regulatory regime that is the sole factor at play. If our regulations are inadequate, the solution is to pester our politicians to fix it, not to abnegate responsibility in favour of a foreign bureaucracy with the power to extract money from the British economy in order to spend it on projects in Eastern Europe (or Ursula Von Der Lying’s private jet, take your pick).

Everything in the Lib Dem press release lurking behind the report in today’s ’I’ can ultimately be solved by British politicians enacting regulations with teeth, or if they won’t do so, by replacing them with ones that will. Bleating on about the ability of a foreign organisation’s willingness to swoop in and do it for us is a waste of time.

Again more deflection. I said that as part of the EU we were held to a common standard whereas now we are not. You can apply this to many sectors. Lots more double speak about "foreign bureaucracy", "extract money from the British economy", etc. The fact is for 40 years this country did very, very well from being part of a common market, yes, Thatcher's common market. Wrenching out an economy that had 40 years of free trade wiring and expecting not to lose billions is naive. Proclaiming sovereignty dogma and waving the union jack won't stump up the 40-odd billion every year or stop the decline.

You cannot complain about the Lib Dems doing what Farage & Crew did in spades in the run up to 2016. I mean he wrote the playbook. Going on about the evil EU or the miracles of blessed sovereignty won't change the historical record of the previous 40 years and the fact that no one cared about EU membership until the populist grifters turned up.

Nope. No deflection at all. I do actually know how the EU works, and EU-wide common standards are totally irrelevant here.

We have a beach pollution problem. We have the means to a solution - laws made in our parliament, by our politicians, and enforced by our regulatory bodies. That’s how the entirety of the rest of the world works. It is normal. If we do not do it, or we do not do it adequately, then it is not ‘because of Brexit’, it is because those who lead us have failed us. And we have a remedy for that at the ballot box.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

as part of the EU we were held to a common standard

That statement, right there, proves you know nothing of the workings of the EU.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

Nope. No deflection at all. I do actually know how the EU works, and EU-wide common standards are totally irrelevant here.

We have a beach pollution problem. We have the means to a solution - laws made in our parliament, by our politicians, and enforced by our regulatory bodies. That’s how the entirety of the rest of the world works. It is normal. If we do not do it, or we do not do it adequately, then it is not ‘because of Brexit’, it is because those who lead us have failed us. And we have a remedy for that at the ballot box.

The article clearly says that the action against the UK for water quality was being closed "because of Brexit – even though wastewater spills “remain too elevated”.

---------- Post added at 00:58 ---------- Previous post was at 00:32 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

Meanwhile, in the world of facts (as opposed to holiday season Lib Dem press releases), the UK has always been - oho! - crap at maintaining bathing water quality.

The article is not a Lib Dem press release. Agree with the latter part of your sentence though.

Originally Posted by Chris

While things have vastly improved since the 1980s, by 2016 we were still comfortably below the EU average, despite, err, being in the EU and subject to its regulator. Graphs a-plenty here:

https://evonews.com/life/2017/may/24...-as-excellent/.

Yes, water quality vastly improved whilst we were in the EU.

Originally Posted by Chris

I’m sorry Andrew but you’re going to have to try a lot harder to convince me that a supra-national body fining UK organisations and then spending the proceeds in the far-flung corners of Europe is a good thing for the UK in the round. Whatever the current failings of our environmental regime, it is, as a matter of democratic principle, a matter for UK politicians who are accountable to the UK electorate.

I don't think anyone on this Forum has ever succeeded in convincing anyone to change their mind on issues like Brexit, but congratulations to anyone who has done so! The use of phrases like 'far-flung corners of Europe' rather than 'Europe' should act as a red flag to anyone who is thinking of trying to do so in this case.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The article is not a Lib Dem press release.

I thought there might be a limit to your naïveté, but apparently not.

https://www.libdems.org.uk/press/rel...it-for-purpose

As someone who has been both a journalist and a press officer, please take my word for it: this story began with that 17 December press release. It is most likely that the Lib Dem media team had the complainant, Robert Latimer, already lined up for any newspaper that contacted them for follow-up information. That is exactly how this works, and most especially that’s how it works at times of year when press officers know papers are short of content and will gratefully received whatever they’re given.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

I thought there might be a limit to your naïveté, but apparently not.

https://www.libdems.org.uk/press/rel...it-for-purpose

As someone who has been both a journalist and a press officer, please take my word for it: this story began with that 17 December press release. It is most likely that the Lib Dem media team had the complainant, Robert Latimer, already lined up for any newspaper that contacted them for follow-up information. That is exactly how this works, and most especially that’s how it works at times of year when press officers know papers are short of content and will gratefully received whatever they’re given.

Thanks for sharing the Lib Dem press release of 17th December.

The story evidently began a day earlier on 16th December with the press release from the OEP. Criticising a political party for responding to a press release lacks logic - they're expected to have an opinion on issues like this one.

The Office for Environmental Protection (OEP) has concluded that there have been failures to comply with environmental law by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra), the Environment Agency (EA) and Ofwat following an investigation into the regulation of network combined sewer overflows (CSOs).

https://www.theoep.org.uk/news/oep-f...tory-oversight

I'm sure that any journalists looking to write on the story would have their quotable contacts lined up to approach and that political parties would facilitate this if it advanced their agendas.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by ianch99

no one cared about EU membership until the populist grifters turned up.

That is correct, it wasn't a doorstep issue until Dave called the referendum

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

That is correct, it wasn't a doorstep issue until Dave called the referendum

As reported by Onya Doorstep of UpNorth news?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Kursk

As reported by Onya Doorstep of UpNorth news?

No as discussed on here infinitum and tbh I have no real interest in revisiting except to say from memory less than 1% of voters considered the EU an important issue when Dave scrapped into power on 2010 and it still wasn't resonating right up until he called the referendum, he turned a party issue into this

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

No as discussed on here infinitum and tbh I have no real interest in revisiting except to say from memory less than 1% of voters considered the EU an important issue when Dave scrapped into power on 2010 and it still wasn't resonating right up until he called the referendum, he turned a party issue into this

Sorry Daddy. It was just a playful reference to the Christmas Wallace and Gromit which featured Onya Doorstep.
Well worth a watch imho.

Originally Posted by Kursk

Well worth a watch imho.

On a show hosted by Anton Dec IIRC

Sorry, carry on, I just had to mention that as I found it quite funny.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Paul

On a show hosted by Anton Dec IIRC

Sorry, carry on, I just had to mention that as I found it quite funny.

Also:

Spoiler: 

the recharging, orgasmic gnome keeping Gromit awake and saying "1% charged..."

Ok, I'm done.