Calls to make black, asian and minority ethnic history compulsory

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

What I do not understand is that you clearly seem to support the UK invading & colonising countries in the past and us imposing our "culture" on those countries' peoples but have a problem when people from these countries bring their culture here.

What goes around, comes around ..

That is preposterous Ian. If it’s so clear that I support a colonial past, please quote chapter & verse. Our colonial past is nothing to do with me and you know it. I am pointing out the incompatibility berween the two cultures and the Saudi plot to eventually make us all face east. I have no problem with the other Asian cultures.

As has been previously pointed out, in most Christian Churches, we face East to pray….

[Carth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

What I do not understand is that you clearly seem to support the UK invading & colonising countries in the past and us imposing our "culture" on those countries' peoples but have a problem when people from these countries bring their culture here.

What goes around, comes around ..

You do have a point there. If only we could go back 500 years or so and change things eh.
Just think, many of the people now advocating change would still be living in mud huts somewhere, no education, no medicines, no amenities, and free from all racism, persecution and slavery . . . well apart from that which was already going on of course.

The good old US of A wouldn't be much of a super power either, you know, with those bows & arrows fired from horseback.

Yep, pity that our forefathers didn't have the 'insight' to see how wrong they were.

Of course the Romans (and others) aren't completely blameless either, coming over here and giving us straight roads, sewers, baths etc etc . . . the rotters.

Anyway, can't stay, I'm hungry and need to go poach one of the Kings deer and hope I don't get set upon by brigands . . . why is there never a policeman when you want one?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

That is preposterous Ian. If it’s so clear that I support a colonial past, please quote chapter & verse. Our colonial past is nothing to do with me and you know it. I am pointing out the incompatibility berween the two cultures and the Saudi plot to eventually make us all face east. I have no problem with the other Asian cultures.

You regularly point out the "good" the British have done in their colonies which, implicitly, validates their presence there. If you disown our colonial past, it would be good to hear that from you.

So, to be clear, you have no problem with Muslim's coming here from our ex-colonies, just the followers of the extreme Wahabi sect?

---------- Post added at 11:29 ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 ----------

Originally Posted by Carth

You do have a point there. If only we could go back 500 years or so and change things eh.
Just think, many of the people now advocating change would still be living in mud huts somewhere, no education, no medicines, no amenities, and free from all racism, persecution and slavery . . . well apart from that which was already going on of course.

The good old US of A wouldn't be much of a super power either, you know, with those bows & arrows fired from horseback.

Yep, pity that our forefathers didn't have the 'insight' to see how wrong they were.

Of course the Romans (and others) aren't completely blameless either, coming over here and giving us straight roads, sewers, baths etc etc . . . the rotters.

Anyway, can't stay, I'm hungry and need to go poach one of the Kings deer and hope I don't get set upon by brigands . . . why is there never a policeman when you want one?

I am not sure what history books you read but I'd try and get your money back.

[Carth]

You're the one that mentioned the UK historically 'invading & colonising countries in the past' . .

I'm just pointing out how different it might be if we (and others) had kept to our own plot of land instead of running around invading and enslaving others.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

As has been previously pointed out, in most Christian Churches, we face East to pray….

Don't bother with that pedantic rubbish! Everybody knows what I mean. Including you.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Don't bother with that pedantic rubbish! Everybody knows what I mean. Including you.

I think he was commenting on the quality of your rhetoric rather than affecting ignorance.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You regularly point out the "good" the British have done in their colonies which, implicitly, validates their presence there. If you disown our colonial past, it would be good to hear that from you.

So, to be clear, you have no problem with Muslim's coming here from our ex-colonies, just the followers of the extreme Wahabi sect?[COLOR="Silver"]

<SNIP>

The good that the British did in their previous colonies was as follows:

1. Provide civil infrastructure (including water plants;

2. Provide a civil administration & justice system;

3. Hand over of the mineral or agricultural industries that Britain had established.

That's what I highlight - nothing to validate our past presence there, just our exit from those territories. You really are being preposterous.

The ex-colony to which you refer that has supplied Muslims to the UK is presumably Pakistan. Their culture is incompatible with ours as events of terrorism and Rotherham have demonstrated.

Assume that in 90 years time there is a Muslim majority in Parliament. No matter how benign those MPs might be, it will be the extremists with muscle that will take over government. Then we'll soon have to face east.

Do you want this? Or are you going to hide behind the stupid argument of cultures evolving? Islam does not evolve.

Originally Posted by Carth

You're the one that mentioned the UK historically 'invading & colonising countries in the past' . .

I'm just pointing out how different it might be if we (and others) had kept to our own plot of land instead of running around invading and enslaving others.

Yes, the 95% of those who lived in the Americas and were wiped out in a couple of generations by the diseases we imported were probably very grateful…

---------- Post added at 12:56 ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The good that the British did in their previous colonies was as follows:

1. Provide civil infrastructure (including water plants;

2. Provide a civil administration & justice system;

3. Hand over of the mineral or agricultural industries that Britain had established.

That's what I highlight - nothing to validate our past presence there, just our exit from those territories. You really are being preposterous.

The ex-colony to which you refer that has supplied Muslims to the UK is presumably Pakistan. Their culture is incompatible with ours as events of terrorism and Rotherham have demonstrated.

Assume that in 90 years time there is a Muslim majority in Parliament. No matter how benign those MPs might be, it will be the extremists with muscle that will take over government. Then we'll soon have to face east.

Do you want this? Or are you going to hide behind the stupid argument of cultures evolving? Islam does not evolve.

No, we won’t - as has previously been pointed, at great length, this is impossible - the facts don’t back up your statement.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The good that the British did in their previous colonies was as follows:

1. Provide civil infrastructure (including water plants;

2. Provide a civil administration & justice system;

3. Hand over of the mineral or agricultural industries that Britain had established.

That's what I highlight - nothing to validate our past presence there, just our exit from those territories. You really are being preposterous.

The ex-colony to which you refer that has supplied Muslims to the UK is presumably Pakistan. Their culture is incompatible with ours as events of terrorism and Rotherham have demonstrated.

Assume that in 90 years time there is a Muslim majority in Parliament. No matter how benign those MPs might be, it will be the extremists with muscle that will take over government. Then we'll soon have to face east.

Do you want this? Or are you going to hide behind the stupid argument of cultures evolving? Islam does not evolve.

Your ignorance of history is extremely thorough.

The only reason we know anything about Classical Greek science and philosophy is because Arabic, Muslim scholars in the Byzantine empire preserved the texts while the inheritors of the western Roman Empire in Europe did not. These were rediscovered by Europeans from around the 13th century onwards and translated into Latin over the following 2-300 years. In the meantime the only way to learn any of it was to go and learn it directly from … Muslims.

What you perceive as unevolved Islam is in many ways an expression of pan-Arab nationalism that began to find its voice in the second half of the 20th century. Islamic countries have all had their high and low points, culturally speaking, just as supposedly Christian European ones have. You don’t have to go far back in history to see newsreel footage of Arab countries whose street scenes are shockingly cosmopolitan and secular compared to the way we tend to assume they look today.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Yes, the 95% of those who lived in the Americas and were wiped out in a couple of generations by the diseases we imported were probably very grateful…

Exactly right Hugh.

Of course eventually, even without intervention from European countries, they too would have got their heads around large scale farming/ranching, railways & bridges, electricity, cotton, oil wells and the internal combustion engine

. . . . . and gunpowder.

Originally Posted by Carth

Exactly right Hugh.

Of course eventually, even without intervention from European countries, they too would have got their heads around large scale farming/ranching, railways & bridges, electricity, cotton, oil wells and the internal combustion engine

. . . . . and gunpowder.

They might. On the other hand, civilisations in Asia, comparable to those of South America prior to European contact, managed not to invent any of those things for 1,000s of years. It is at least as likely that had these people remained isolated, they would be the same now as they were 500 years ago.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chris

They might. On the other hand, civilisations in Asia, comparable to those of South America prior to European contact, managed not to invent any of those things for 1,000s of years. It is at least as likely that had these people remained isolated, they would be the same now as they were 500 years ago.

Hugh and Chris would have us sleep walking into being overrun by an incompatible culture. Their arguments suppose there is no Saudi or similar long term plan; my argument supposes that there is a long term plan for Islam to take over.

There are no facts to prove me wrong - only opinions. Vigilance, my friends.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Chris

They might. On the other hand, civilisations in Asia, comparable to those of South America prior to European contact, managed not to invent any of those things for 1,000s of years. It is at least as likely that had these people remained isolated, they would be the same now as they were 500 years ago.

Thanks Chris, sort of proves my point that if we hadn't gone charging about all over the world, many of the people complaining that we did it wouldn't even be here to complain about it . . . or possibly know we even existed

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Hugh and Chris would have us sleep walking into being overrun by an incompatible culture. Their arguments suppose there is no Saudi or similar long term plan; my argument supposes that there is a long term plan for Islam to take over.

There are no facts to prove me wrong - only opinions. Vigilance, my friends.

If both arguments are ultimately based on supposition, neither is more useful than the other.

However, I refute your claim that mine is based on supposition even as you admit that yours is. How extraordinary that you so readily admit to the essential weakness of your position.