Post-Brexit Thread

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/07...e-9f844c3a07a7

Britain is leaning towards a softer Brexit after ministers admitted that they were considering plans to allow low-skilled migration and could pay to access the single market after leaving the European Union.

The government does not want to end up with damaging labour shortages, David Davis, the Brexit secretary, said last night amid growing signs that ministers were moderating their stance.

Starting to get more sensible.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Damien

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/07...e-9f844c3a07a7

Starting to get more sensible.

Europe knows our negotiating strengths and weaknesses.

May's Government keeping a cap on its position has been to keep the more extreme Eurosceptics placated but this strategy seems to be weakening as the leaks increase...and the £ benefits.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Chris

Personally, as someone who voted leave, I'm a little tired of remainers constantly claiming they know leavers' reasons for their vote better than they do themselves. Laurie Penney tried it on on Question Time last night and quite rightly got absolutely savaged for it.

"Hard Brexit" and "Soft Brexit" are the imaginings of remainers trying to frame a debate, they are not a serious or useful means of describing the decision making process of people who voted leave.

I am becoming genuinely concerned that remoaners are pushing brexiteers toward UKIP. Try to think it through chaps and the risk that the constant disruptive bleating runs . You can't be that thick?

Originally Posted by Chris

Personally, as someone who voted leave, I'm a little tired of remainers constantly claiming they know leavers' reasons for their vote better than they do themselves. Laurie Penney tried it on on Question Time last night and quite rightly got absolutely savaged for it.

"Hard Brexit" and "Soft Brexit" are the imaginings of remainers trying to frame a debate, they are not a serious or useful means of describing the decision making process of people who voted leave.

I find it pathetic that they seem to know how or why we voted leave and that they think we want to stay one foot in the door to the EU. No way. It did not say on the ballot form, 'Partially' leave the EU. It was a simple sweeping question and Leave was one of the options.

Now for the vast majority of the leave camp, I am pretty certain, we voted to leave the EU in it's entirety because at the end of the day, leave means LEAVE and we KNEW that voting leave meant:-

Go away from. depart from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from, take one's leave of, pull out of, quit, be gone from, decamp from, disappear from, abandon, vacate, absent oneself from, evacuate; say one's farewells/goodbyes, make off, clear out, make oneself scarce, check out; abscond from, run away from, flee (from), fly from, bolt from, go AWOL, take French leave, escape (from); informal push off, shove off, cut, cut and run, do a bunk, do a disappearing act, split, vamoose, scoot, clear off, take off, make tracks, up sticks, pack one's bags, flit.

And the world goes on and the discussion moves to what Leave is going to look like. David Davies was a strong Brexit supporter, we're not talking about a 'Remoaner' here.

"Personally, as someone who voted leave, I'm a little tired of remainers constantly claiming they know leavers' reasons for their vote better than they do themselves. Laurie Penney tried it on on Question Time last night and quite rightly got absolutely savaged for it.".

It's brilliant how leave voters didn't know what they were voting for but remain supporters know exactly what we voted for and never stop telling us why we voted for leave. This referendum has shown as far as I'm concerned how many people are only in favour of democracy when it delivers the result they want and when it doesn't it should be ignored and done again. If the referendum was held again i think leave would win again and perhaps with a larger majority as despite constantly being told how wrong we were to vote leave not a single person i know that voted leave has changed their position but a couple of people who voted remain have said they would change.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Damien

And the world goes on and the discussion moves to what Leave is going to look like. David Davies was a strong Brexit supporter, we're not talking about a 'Remoaner' here.

Some of the pro-Brexit television public seem to be fighting the referendum all over again. We're all leavers now and the debate is now what a workable Brexit looks like.

It's not a case of a someone in Government saying, "I voted leave, therefore I get to determine what Brexit looks like." The Government still has to take the views of everyone into account.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Some of the pro-Brexit television public seem to be fighting the referendum all over again.

We're all leavers now and the debate is now what a workable Brexit looks like. It's not a case of a someone in Government saying, "I voted leave, therefore I get to determine what Brexit looks like." The Government still has to take the views of everyone into account.

[pip08456]

Theresa May wasn't invited to an important annual EU leaders' dinner

Donald Tusk, president of the European Council, will use the dinner to "set out how the Brexit process will be handled by the EU 27" once the UK has triggered Article 50, and the move will be seen as a signal that leaders intend to present a united front against the UK in upcoming Brexit negotiations.

Hardly surprising.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/theres...summit-2016-12

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The Government still has to take the views of everyone into account.

Wrong - the government needs to take the views of what the leave side voted for. A democratic decision has to be upheld and that decision was LEAVE. I mean, wtf is this where the winning side should be dictated in to negotiations to partially remain in the EU by the losing side of democracy ?

There is no possible way to come to some mutual agreement or understanding because the fundamental principles of each campaigns are at opposite sides of the argument.

The Country voted to leave, the remain side and their campaign lost the democratic decision and they want to remain and now, even after losing and somewhat accepting the decision, now campaigning to keep one foot in the door to the EU, it should not be happening because that is not what the leave camp want or voted for.

Had the remain campaign won, there is no way in hell the remain camp would have listened to the leave camp and worked with them to try and achieve a common ground together, we would have been told to bugger off and accept the decision to remain. There would have been no, 'let's see what a 'remain' decision would look like.'

Pfffft.... We already knew what a remain side would look like because Cameron failed to get us a convincing deal prior to the referendum, when he went to Brussels to try and renegotiate our membership arrangements and we was told there would be no further negotiations post-referendum and that's if we had remained, thank heavens we voted the other way, bloody EU cretins.

When we vote a Party in to power, they do not then go down the route of well, 'we'll take the losers views on how to run the Country', DON'T think so.

Out completely from that rotten establishment, that is all I am interested in because that's what I and many many others voted for.

On June 23rd 2016, 17.4 Million people didn't suddenly forget what the definition of 'Leave' meant. I certainly did not!

Originally Posted by Mick

When we vote a Party in to power, they do not then go down the route of well, 'we'll take the losers views on how to run the Country', DON'T think so.

Well they do. The Government has to govern for everybody not just those who agreed with them plus it's tactically smart to move into your opponents turf if possible. The Tories have taken ideas from Labour already.

Anyway we're leaving the EU and when it comes to ideas of what our new relationship with Europe will be there needs to be more than 'Leave means Leave'. Paying for some access to the single market is not being part of the European Union, it's a different agreement.

If these ideas are unacceptable then something else will need to take it's place. However what isn't going to happen is a complete withdrawal from dealing with Europe at all, something will take the place of the EU as the way we deal with them.

Again though I point out many of the politicians dealing with this were Leave campaigners.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

Wrong - the government needs to take the views of what the leave side voted for. A democratic decision has to be upheld and that decision was LEAVE. I mean, wtf is this where the winning side should be dictated in to negotiations to partially remain in the EU by the losing side of democracy ?

There is no possible way to come to some mutual agreement or understanding because the fundamental principles of each campaigns are at opposite sides of the argument.

The Country voted to leave, the remain side and their campaign lost the democratic decision and they want to remain and now, even after losing and somewhat accepting the decision, now campaigning to keep one foot in the door to the EU, it should not be happening because that is not what the leave camp want or voted for.

Had the remain campaign won, there is no way in hell the remain camp would have listened to the leave camp and worked with them to try and achieve a common ground together, we would have been told to bugger off and accept the decision to remain. There would have been no, 'let's see what a 'remain' decision would look like.'

Pfffft.... We already knew what a remain side would look like because Cameron failed to get us a convincing deal prior to the referendum, when he went to Brussels to try and renegotiate our membership arrangements and we was told there would be no further negotiations post-referendum and that's if we had remained, thank heavens we voted the other way, bloody EU cretins.

When we vote a Party in to power, they do not then go down the route of well, 'we'll take the losers views on how to run the Country', DON'T think so.

Out completely from that rotten establishment, that is all I am interested in because that's what I and many many others voted for.

On June 23rd 2016, 17.4 Million people didn't suddenly forget what the definition of 'Leave' meant. I certainly did not!

There are numerous understandings of what "leave the EU means." We're leaving the EU but how closely we're involved with them in the future is the relevant debate.
Winning the 23/6 referendum is not like winning a war when you invade another country and lay down the terms to the enemy. The Government and pro-Brexit ministers all get this issue and I am sure that those outside government who don't get it now will get it in time.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

It's brilliant how leave voters didn't know what they were voting for but remain supporters know exactly what we voted for and never stop telling us why we voted for leave. This referendum has shown as far as I'm concerned how many people are only in favour of democracy when it delivers the result they want and when it doesn't it should be ignored and done again. If the referendum was held again i think leave would win again and perhaps with a larger majority as despite constantly being told how wrong we were to vote leave not a single person i know that voted leave has changed their position but a couple of people who voted remain have said they would change.

Given that project fear's apocalyptic predictions have proved totally false I would expect those who wanted to leave but were cowed into voting remain would change their minds. I would expect an increased majority for a full leave.

No leave to the majority was completely leave the EU and anything EU related pretty straightforward to be honest and that doesn't mean we turn our back on europe or have no dealings with them. It means we no longer pay a penny more into EU coffers and if we do agree to pay to access the single market you can be damn sure the EU will make the agreement in such a way that the fee goes up each year. But i understand that grasping the concept of life without the EU is foreign to some and the idea of trading globally with our attention more directed to true global trade rather then an ever decreasing trade with the EU. I guess i and most leave voters have more confidence in our nations ability to not just manage on the global stage but prosper greatly from it.

[heero_yuy]