[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Russia made it clear over twenty years ago Damien when communism fell for the west not to expand to it's border's and that it wanted a buffer between them and NATO. Both NATO and the EU agreed at the time but have chosen to ignore it and advance ever eastward what did they expect it was a stupid move on both parties and the people suffering for it are ukrainians. Like it or not both NATO and the EU are responsible for heightening tensions in that area and if Russia was intending to be more aggressive well good job western alliances you really outflanked them.

The EU doesn't respect independent sovereign nations it views them as an impediment to the creation of the federal superstate and that's not opinion it's been said many different times by many EU representatives not quite as bluntly as I put it but the intention is the same. I have no particular love for Russia and certainly not for Putin but if we are so damn stupid to hand Russia excuses then I have to question those making decisions in the EU and NATO as they clearly are not capable.

Huh? Blaming the EU for Putin invading Ukraine, Georgia, etc. Maybe they shot down the plane over the Ukraine?

Sounds like appeasement to me ..

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Russia made it clear over twenty years ago Damien when communism fell for the west not to expand to it's border's and that it wanted a buffer between them and NATO. Both NATO and the EU agreed at the time but have chosen to ignore it and advance ever eastward what did they expect it was a stupid move on both parties and the people suffering for it are ukrainians. Like it or not both NATO and the EU are responsible for heightening tensions in that area and if Russia was intending to be more aggressive well good job western alliances you really outflanked them.

The EU doesn't respect independent sovereign nations it views them as an impediment to the creation of the federal superstate and that's not opinion it's been said many different times by many EU representatives not quite as bluntly as I put it but the intention is the same. I have no particular love for Russia and certainly not for Putin but if we are so damn stupid to hand Russia excuses then I have to question those making decisions in the EU and NATO as they clearly are not capable.

How can you claim that the EU doesn't respect sovereign nations in the same two paragraphs as you completely ignore Ukraine's wishes in favour of Russia? It should be up to the people of Ukraine what they want no? It may not be smart geopolitically granted but the fault of that is Russian aggression.

It was Russia who infringed on the sovereignty of Ukraine, not the EU.

---------- Post added at 21:14 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------

Whose winning the debate? Brexiters on Twitter are saying it's Brexit but Remainers are saying it's Remain. I am really confused.

It isn't appeasement a whole raft of agreements were made after the collapse of the U.S.S.R and one was no expansion by the west up to the borders of Russia and we have totally reneged on that as we thought we could do it and get away with it. Russia is no saint in all this but did we really have to hand them a perfect excuse which is exactly what we did. As to your point Damien they only respected Ukraine while they were grooming them for entry into the EU once in they would have been treated like any other member of the EU independent and sovereign only as long as it doesn't become inconvinient or interfere with the grand federal plan.

Everything that has gone on since the start of this referendum campaign demonstrates the EU and it's attitude more then I ever could just listen to the rhetoric of the EU brigade and then tell me it's a pleasant organisation with the best interests of the uk in any way. We will be "punished" if we leave, no room for "deserters" at the table as well as the numerous talk of trade wars, once upon a time that would have the country up in arms and guaranteed our leaving now it seems plenty of Brits are happy to be talked too in those terms and even support it.

Roll on June 23rd and hopefully a decisive leave vote because while I love most of Europe the EU part of it can sod off.

[Gavin78]

Tonight's debate.

350m a week "IN" asked him it's a lie they said. Well maybe in the sense of what we get back but we still have to pay out 350m first before any rebate. The point being why don't we just pay 150m a week instead and keep the rest instead of a rebate. Simple the 350m is there in case they want to take it all and from what I heard the rebate is only conditional for a short period of time?

immigration - "IN" talked about being able to get qualified people over here for shortages yet outside the EU that would be impossible to get the skills needed.

What a load of Tosh, under the AUS point system they could select the right "skilled" people to work here and fast track them where needed after going through stringent checks this can be from anywhere in the world or are they saying the EU will be black listing the UK to stop workers coming here.

How many EU supposed "skilled" people come here setup a company for example a Dentist and they been deemed unsafe to practice but were simple allowed in because of EU rules.

Same with Sturgeon I mean come on she wanted an independent Scotland and didn't really care what effect it had on the English, Welsh or Irish people when it came to this ever closer union or how this would have affected houses, jobs, pay and well the economy overall. So while the "IN" team were all for slating Boris for prime minister I think she needs to look closer to home herself.

Same with the "IN" team going on about how the EU have set laws for maternity pay, wages and working hours she seemed to insinuate that our parliament "900 elected members" who make the UK laws do not have the UK interests at heart and will screw the working person at any given opportunity so being in the EU unelected members can make UK laws to protect the British people from our own GOV. what a load of crap working rights will stay the same or better out of the EU where we can make laws our own.

[Julian]

Eddie Izzard was good on question time tonight.....

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by techguyone

this is (so far) the stupidest post I've seen in a long time.


Why?

wasn't the many months long lead up to it long enough?

Aren't these people already registered to vote... you know, for stuff like local elections, General ones etc.

Is it really that hard not to expect the 'under 40's' - bless them to manage to do that all by themselves without the helping hand of 'we'll do it for you automatically'

If people care enough about their future or politics, they need to get up off their ass and onto their hind legs and do something about it - all by themselves...

We don't (quite yet) live in an amazing automagical word for Gen Snowflake.
Nor should we, people need to engage because they care, if they don't then too bad for the little darlings - they have a voice,they just need to use it.

On reflection you're right it is a stupid idea, far smarter for us to stick with the kind of politics that leave 5 million voters with 1 mp, that gives the elderly the loudest voice at the expense of everyone else and means that millions of votes might as well not be bothered to be cast unless you happen to live in a marginal seat, yes that would be the far smarter thing to do indeed.

---------- Post added at 00:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:12 ----------

Originally Posted by MarkC1984

My 17 yo sister would vote to stay in. Her reasons? 'Because I love this chocolate and it is only available in the EU so I won't be able to buy it if we leave'.

Honestly, if that is the kind of reasons for people voting to stay or leave, then God help this country when that generation run to be PM of the UK.

Better that reason than rabid xenophobia for instance

What rabid xenophobia I hear that term thrown around a lot as though it somehow applies to most people in favour of leaving and like most of the stuff remain comes out with it's a load of rubbish. Not being in the EU doesn't mean we close the shutters and ignore the rest of the world quite the opposite most in favour of leaving are enthusiastic for greater global relations so how is xenophobic applicable??.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

What rabid xenophobia I hear that term thrown around a lot as though it somehow applies to most people in favour of leaving and like most of the stuff remain comes out with it's a load of rubbish. Not being in the EU doesn't mean we close the shutters and ignore the rest of the world quite the opposite most in favour of leaving are enthusiastic for greater global relations so how is xenophobic applicable??.

Well he responding to the suggestion Remain voters haven't thought about it. His point being stop generalising the other side negatively.

---------- Post added at 07:32 ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 ----------

Anyway I am now 70% sure Leave is going to win. I think the polls and pundits are underestiming the vote from working class Labour voters, especially in the north. The underlying polling is also bad for Remain, many think there will be no economic hit from Brexit.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

What is there to learn? Ukraine was caught between two nations and many inside in Ukraine did not want closer ties with Russia, maybe remembering the last time, and closer ties with Europe. Now that's not a great divide to have in a country but it's not the EU's fault that people desired to be closer to Europe politically than Russia. The deal from the EU was not accession but a association agreement although even if it was to begin accession talks it would still be the decision of the Ukrainian people.

It was Russia who attempted to subvert that and it was eventually Russia again who invaded Ukraine and took over the Crimean Peninsula.

As far as I can see the only fault of the EU is entering talks with Ukraine against the will of Russia.

Well that was the lesson I was referring to. What the EU needs to learn is that it can't expect to expand (or be seen to be making overtures) into former Soviet territories without Russia reacting aggressively using any pretext to do so. Whilst the likes of Putin are in power, right or wrong has nothing to do with it, sadly, Russia can and will manipulate the situation to suit itself and, as we've seen, the ramifications aren't pleasant with tensions still simmering away and unresolved in Ukraine. If the EU is intent on doing what the populations of other nations may want then it's going to have to be prepared to deal with the military reaction that will likely invoke from Russia. That's the real world I'm afraid and I'd have thought the EU's concerns right now ought to rest with better serving the peoples of the nations in what's a pretty dysfunctional club and worry a bit less about expanding and rattling Russia's cage.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Gavin78

Tonight's debate.

350m a week "IN" asked him it's a lie they said. Well maybe in the sense of what we get back but we still have to pay out 350m first before any rebate. The point being why don't we just pay 150m a week instead and keep the rest instead of a rebate. Simple the 350m is there in case they want to take it all and from what I heard the rebate is only conditional for a short period of time?

immigration - "IN" talked about being able to get qualified people over here for shortages yet outside the EU that would be impossible to get the skills needed.

What a load of Tosh, under the AUS point system they could select the right "skilled" people to work here and fast track them where needed after going through stringent checks this can be from anywhere in the world or are they saying the EU will be black listing the UK to stop workers coming here.

How many EU supposed "skilled" people come here setup a company for example a Dentist and they been deemed unsafe to practice but were simple allowed in because of EU rules.

Same with Sturgeon I mean come on she wanted an independent Scotland and didn't really care what effect it had on the English, Welsh or Irish people when it came to this ever closer union or how this would have affected houses, jobs, pay and well the economy overall. So while the "IN" team were all for slating Boris for prime minister I think she needs to look closer to home herself.

Same with the "IN" team going on about how the EU have set laws for maternity pay, wages and working hours she seemed to insinuate that our parliament "900 elected members" who make the UK laws do not have the UK interests at heart and will screw the working person at any given opportunity so being in the EU unelected members can make UK laws to protect the British people from our own GOV. what a load of crap working rights will stay the same or better out of the EU where we can make laws our own.

Workers' Rights? Well the EU law is 20 days holiday per year. In the UK it's 28. Maternity leave is short compared to the UK law of 1 year. How exactly have they improved workers' rights in that respect?

As to last night's debate which I'll be watching in a bit, but have seen highlights, all that was about was ganging up on Boris and nothing else. They are scared of him for some reason. I had a lot of respect for Nicola Sturgeon, now I'm not so sure. The things she was saying in the clips I saw were the opposite to her stance during the Independence debate.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

What rabid xenophobia I hear that term thrown around a lot as though it somehow applies to most people in favour of leaving and like most of the stuff remain comes out with it's a load of rubbish. Not being in the EU doesn't mean we close the shutters and ignore the rest of the world quite the opposite most in favour of leaving are enthusiastic for greater global relations so how is xenophobic applicable??.

Well it just goes to demonstrate the paucity of their argument and their hypocrisy. They cannot win the controlled migration argument by definition so they resort on nasty insults and intimidation - just like what happened in the Scottish referendum. It's nothing new but at least people are a) seeing through it and b) refusing to be bullied into silence anymore.

Originally Posted by Osem

Well it just goes to demonstrate the paucity of their argument and their hypocrisy. They cannot win the controlled migration argument by definition so they resort on nasty insults and intimidation - just like what happened in the Scottish referendum. It's nothing new but at least people are a) seeing through it and b) refusing to be bullied into silence anymore.

He was just responding to the idea that Remain voters are using stupid reasons for their vote.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

He was just responding to the idea that Remain voters are using stupid reasons for their vote.

I was agreeing with the post I replied to and making a general point about tactics, not referring to anyone else in particular.

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Workers' Rights? Well the EU law is 20 days holiday per year. In the UK it's 28. Maternity leave is short compared to the UK law of 1 year. How exactly have they improved workers' rights in that respect?

As to last night's debate which I'll be watching in a bit, but have seen highlights, all that was about was ganging up on Boris and nothing else. They are scared of him for some reason. I had a lot of respect for Nicola Sturgeon, now I'm not so sure. The things she was saying in the clips I saw were the opposite to her stance during the Independence debate.

Your statement is not based in fact...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ne...ays-in-Europe/

Across Europe, the average leave and public holiday entitlement was 33 days, according to data collected from 12 European countries

You appear to be including our Bank Holidays, but not the European countries ones.

If we leave aside our own biases and try to discuss this objectively what does everyone think the actual result will be and why?

As I said above I think that a combination of anti-establishment mood as well as a serious underestimation of the Leave vote in Northern Labour heartlands will win this for Leave. I can't explain why the polls aren't picking this up, and it may be apprehension talking, but the underlying questions in the polling are alarming for Remain. Only 1/3rd of the electorate think there will be any economic impact in Leaving for example whilst the vast majority think immigration will go down. 50% of Labour voters think Labour supports Leave. Most voters think EU immigration accounts for 15% of the population as opposed to 5%.

Essentially the Leave campaign is working. Despite the 50-50 in the polls most voters think Brexit will not hurt the economy but will reduce migration. If that's the case Remain is finished. Either the headline poll numbers are wrong or the underlying poll numbers are wrong. There is no way most voters think the economy will be fine but will vote to Remain anyway.