[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

He didn't actually call them liars to be fair but said they were wrong/inaccurate.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by j52c

What I sometimes fail to understand is that most polticians say that all the majority of the immigrants pay all their taxes and put a lot back into the economy. Let us face it, a big majority of all immigrants will be on low wages and will claim tax credits and other benefits to make their wages up and will still not pay any income tax due to the increase in personal allowances. Then, most of these will be claiming child benefit for their children back home, plus they will be send the biggest part of their earnings back home to the families there. How is that benefitting our economy. The only person benefittiing is their employer.

Exactly!

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by j52c

What I sometimes fail to understand is that most polticians say that all the majority of the immigrants pay all their taxes and put a lot back into the economy. Let us face it, a big majority of all immigrants will be on low wages and will claim tax credits and other benefits to make their wages up and will still not pay any income tax due to the increase in personal allowances. Then, most of these will be claiming child benefit for their children back home, plus they will be send the biggest part of their earnings back home to the families there. How is that benefitting our economy. The only person benefittiing is their employer.

Do you have a link for this "big majority of all immigrants will be on low wages and will claim tax credits and other benefits" assertion?

All I could find was this DWP report from last year:

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-june-2015.pdf

Nationality at point of National Insurance number registration of DWP benefit claimants

These statistics do not provide a measure of non-UK nationals currently claiming benefits based on their current nationality. The statistics do provide an estimate of the number of people currently claiming benefit who, when they first registered for a NINo (that is, first entered the labour market), were non-UK nationals.

Headline figures : As at February 2015, 5.1 million people were claiming DWP working age benefits;
Of these 371 thousand (7.2%) are estimated to have been non-UK nationals when they first registered for a NINo. This compares with 395 thousand (7.4%) in Feb 2014.

As at February 2015, approximately 14% of working age UK nationals were claiming a DWP working age benefit compared to 6% of working age non-UK nationals (at the time they first registered for a National Insurance Number) (resident working age GB population figures based on country of birth 2013, ONS). Claimants who were non-UK nationals when they registered for a NINo may of course subsequently have become permanent residents or British citizens.

Originally Posted by ianch99

Do you have a link for this "big majority of all immigrants will be on low wages and will claim tax credits and other benefits" assertion?

All I could find was this DWP report from last year:

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-june-2015.pdf

There is an article here that's good too: https://next.ft.com/content/0deacb52...8-00386a18e39d

In short it's difficult to measure it. It's certainly not a given. But we're talking across the population here and not specific individuals.

[Anonymouse]

Right, that's it. I. HAVE. HAD. ENOUGH.

To explain: I have registered to vote, the first time in years that I've bothered to do so. Today I received a leaflet in the mail, saying it's a 'referendum communication'. Though it is addressed to me - by name - it does not specifically state who it's from. What the hell kind of communication is that?!

That's not what's ticked me off per se (though I regard it as rude for the sender not to identify him/herself). This is: it's a propaganda leaflet, saying what the 'experts' think. These are:

Field Marshal Lord Bramall, former chief of the defence staff;
Anders Rasmussen, former NATO Secretary General;
Cathy Warwick, Chief Executive of the Royal College of Midwives;
Sir Richard Branson, the only person on this list I've ever heard of;
Martin Lewis, Leading Consumer Champion (was he a newsreader?);
Karren Brady, otherwise unidentified - who the hell is she?! What makes her an expert?!
These "experts" all vote for Remain. This is not a "communication" - it's practically a bloody order! If I weren't already certain that Brexit is the way to go, I surely would be now!

There's a quote from Nigel Sheinwald, former UK Ambassador to the US: "If we leave the EU, we'll lose our seat at the top table - and risk our influence in the world."

This leaflet states (in small, very faint light grey print) that it's promoted by Will Straw, on behalf of Britain Stronger In Europe (The In Campaign Ltd.).

Aren't they supposed to have stopped doing this stuff by now? I have received nothing from Vote Leave or whoever - hardly democratic!

I will not be told what to do or how to vote! NO-ONE ON THIS PLANET HAS ANY RIGHT TO DO THAT!!! There is ONE, and ONLY one, person in this entire Universe who is empowered to make such decisions on my behalf - and that's ME!!!!!

I have decided, by myself, for myself, that the EU is a bad idea and the sooner it's dissolved permanently the better! Brexit will, I hope, facilitate this process by starting the ball rolling...or being the first domino!

Roll on the 23rd!!!

[Osem]

Another change of argument. I thought we were being told that immigrants were coming here to do the low wage, dirty jobs that lazy Brits didn't want to do. That was the justification for mass migration we had rammed down our throats. When it's pointed out that such people aren't likely to be big net contributors (if at all) to UK PLC, the claim arises that more of them are skilled people in higher paid jobs, paying loads of tax. Surely even a politician can't claim the majority of migrants can be in both categories...

Originally Posted by Osem

Another change of argument. I thought we were being told that immigrants were coming here to do the low wage, dirty jobs that lazy Brits didn't want to do. That was the justification for mass migration we had rammed down our throats. When it's pointed out that such people aren't likely to be big net contributors (if at all) to UK PLC, the claim arises that more of them are skilled people in higher paid jobs, paying loads of tax. Surely even a politician can't claim the majority of migrants can be in both categories...

I think we're on the same argument? We're talking about the effect on wages above I don't it was about them doing the jobs we don't want to do unless I missed a post?

Originally Posted by Anonymouse

Aren't they supposed to have stopped doing this stuff by now? I have received nothing from Vote Leave or whoever - hardly democratic!

The individual campaigns are in charge of sending out campaign material. Leave not contacting you (yet) would be their decision. They're also not prevented from doing it, both campaigns can send out leaflets etc.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Osem

Well they change the argument to suit themselves and the day of the week. I fail to see how any migrant who's earning a low income and receiving IN WORK BENEFITS (e.g. working tax credit, child tax credit, child benefit) can be much of a net contributor to UK PLC, especially since many of them will also be sending money back home.

As for the 'bonfire of workers rights' argument, well it's frankly puerile. Until 5 minutes ago Corbyn was a sincere believer that the EU wasn't good for the man in the street and that Labour is the party of the working man. Presumably he now feels that with him as its leader Labour is so unelectable that he'd rather us be run by unelected suits in Brussels. It's laughable.

Originally Posted by j52c View Post
What I sometimes fail to understand is that most polticians say that all the majority of the immigrants pay all their taxes and put a lot back into the economy. Let us face it, a big majority of all immigrants will be on low wages and will claim tax credits and other benefits to make their wages up and will still not pay any income tax due to the increase in personal allowances. Then, most of these will be claiming child benefit for their children back home, plus they will be send the biggest part of their earnings back home to the families there. How is that benefitting our economy. The only person benefittiing is their employer.

This is a cracking argument j52c, wish I'd thought of it. They change their stories more than I change my socks. I'll be sure to use that argument in the next 16 days.

---------- Post added at 15:19 ---------- Previous post was at 15:17 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

A rare bit of good news both sides can agree on: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...endum-deadline



Remain or Leave it's best that it is decided by a large turnout and it's encouraging to many young people signing themselves up to the electoral register considered the poor turnout in elections for that age group.

Yes I can go along with that, however, does a large turnout not mean remain have a better chance of winning?

Guys you understand that people on the Remain side aren't a monolithic bloc? Just because one person makes one argument and another person makes a different argument doesn't mean they're changing their stories.

[Osem]

I must say I've lost a little respect for Martin Lewis. Yesterday I listened to him on BBC R5IIRC, telling listeners they should make their own minds up and refusing to comment on what his personal view is. Now he's apparently come out and confirmed how he'll be voting to remain in the EU. Why do that if you want people to make up their own minds, unless of course you're hoping to influence them? I'd not have a problem if he just said he wants everyone to vote to stay in but why do this?

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Yes I can go along with that, however, does a large turnout not mean remain have a better chance of winning?

Can argue it either way IMO. High turnout reduces the change there will be a motivation difference which some Leave supporters hope for but how do you know these registrations aren't motivated Leave supporters? Either way high turnout is a good thing for something as crucial as this.

[Big Brian]

Went into an e-cig shop this morning to get a new e-cig and some juice and we got talking about what would be legal and illegal if we remain in the EU and e-cigs are to be hit hard if we remain. You who smoke them won't be able to buy the big ones any more or buy any juice to vape over 1.0 strength. ATM I have 3.0 which is about the same as a normal cigarette. Guess which way they will be voting?

Originally Posted by Osem

I must say I've lost a little respect for Martin Lewis. Yesterday I listened to him on BBC R5IIRC, telling listeners they should make their own minds up and refusing to comment on what his personal view is. Now he's apparently come out and confirmed how he'll be voting to remain in the EU. Why do that if you want people to make up their own minds, unless of course you're hoping to influence them? I'd not have a problem if he just said he wants everyone to vote to stay in but why do this?

Think it was part of this post: http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...eu-referendum/

My concern is, having tried to present arguments from both sides, I don’t want anyone to read this and feel later I’d hidden something that is out there.

I’m generally risk-averse, and that pushes me just towards an IN vote for safety, maybe 55% to 45%. Yet just as my dream holiday isn’t necessarily yours, no more is my choice of what’s right a call for you to follow me. Far better is follow the logic above.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Damien

Think it was part of this post: http://blog.moneysavingexpert.com/20...eu-referendum/

Well I've already voted and don't regret it. Vote Leave the risk isn't as bad as they say it is.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

I think we're on the same argument? We're talking about the effect on wages above I don't it was about them doing the jobs we don't want to do unless I missed a post...

Sorry my post wasn't directed at our earlier posts, just an observation as to how migrants are described differently according to the point being made.