[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[ianch99]

If Leave win the vote, leaving DC in power until the next election, has this schism damaged the Conservative party so much that they risk losing their majority in 2020? Either way, the amount of mistrust in what both sides are saying surely has to have a lasting effect ...

The Euro issue has damaged Conservative governments in the past but the arguments that were had then seem small-scale compared to what is going on now.

Corbyn has been keeping very quiet on this subject .. maybe this is a very astute position to adopt?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Does the BBC never learn?
BBC Brexit Report Presented EU-Backed Professor As Independent ‘Trade Expert’

Just heard her interviewed on five live, quite like what she had to say

---------- Post added at 01:28 ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 ----------

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

The way things are going, after the vote. We will be looking at an October Election, as DC wont survive.

And the knives are out for Corbyn, which is good. I voted for Burnham.

Burnham, meet the new boss same as the old boss, when won't we get fooled again

---------- Post added at 01:33 ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

Gove has said we wouldn't leave the EU by the end of the Parliament (2020) so this is going to drag on for years (presumably Gove is trying to make it seem risk-free). Additionally tomorrow is going to have a poll showing a big lead for Leave apparently.

Leaving would be out of his and our hands, if we can't negotiate a unanimous extension after the 2 year period we're out regardless of how far negotiations have progressed.

---------- Post added at 01:36 ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 ----------

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Not necessarily. I read somewhere or it was some lie from Remain, that it could take 10 years to unravel from the EU.

Great news on the poll if it's true.

Its not true, you need the unanimous vote of all other members to agree an extension. There was talk earlier that if we vote leave and don't bother to tell the EU we plan to go the clock for the two years doesn't begin ticking until they get notice of our intentions, how long could that be dragged out though, a few months at best

---------- Post added at 01:44 ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 ----------

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I won't watch anything with john major the guy is just a prat now and a new jobs loss figure of 3 million wow at this rate day before the vote there won't be a job in the country that won't be lost if we vote leave. I don't agree with the exaggerations or embellishments whatever side may state them but the fact the British public are a few week's away from a very important vote and only get facts or as near to facts as we can by digging themselves (which I think everyone should do anyway) is a sad reflection on both camps and more reliable information should have been easily and freely available.

As I've said remain or leave this country has a huge political problem and it's going to have a far bigger impact short term then membership of the EU as I think more and more people in the UK have seen how pathetic our politicians have become and how unlikely they are to do what's truly in our or the nations interest.

The three million jobs is an old quote from someone or thing that's well respected (I posted who or what institution earlier in this thread if you are interested in finding out who said it) the thing to really bare in mind with that quote is the next line that says after 3 million jobs rely on trade with the EU, that's not to say if we'd leave we'd lose any of those jobs, the jobs rely on the trade not the membership or words to that effect

---------- Post added at 01:46 ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

That's probably not the poll we were mentioning earlier. It's based on the one commissioned by the Guardian although the pollsters changed their weighting as they believed they had over-sampled people who are socially conservative: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/ind...ould-be-ahead/

So it's a lead for Remain under the new weighting and a lead for Leave under the old one.

There is apparently another poll tonight showing Leave ahead and given the hype around it then it's probably a big one.

I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if leave win, I'm sure leavers are a lot more motivated to vote than remains.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't think it's fair to blame the EU for growing inequality. After the all the gap between rich and poor is happening Worldwide including America. Although at the same time absolute poverty is reducing.

This is the kind of thing that Corbyn has been going on about though. Think you might have to revisit your opinion of the man.

Oh right so it's happening in spite of the EU? I thought one of the reasons being cited to be in the EU is protecting workers' rights. Don't; forget, we're all going to be slaves with our rights torn up if we dare to leave.

As for Corbyn, he's been anti-EU virtually ever since he was conceived. Given that he's never stopped playing the same political tune in every other respect, his sudden conversion to being pro-EU is IMHO a tad suspect. It wasn't that long ago he was saying the opposite about things single-stateside.

Unlike those for whom he appears a breath of fresh air, my opinion of Corbyn has been formed over a very long time, way back to the 1970's and 80's. It won't be changing any time soon.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Osem

Oh right so it's happening in spite of the EU? I thought one of the reasons being cited to be in the EU is protecting workers' rights. Don't; forget, we're all going to be slaves with our rights torn up if we dare to leave.

As for Corbyn, he's been anti-EU virtually ever since he was conceived. Given that he's never stopped playing the same political tune in every other respect, his sudden conversion to being pro-EU is IMHO a tad suspect. It wasn't that long ago he was saying the opposite about things single-stateside.

Unlike those for whom he appears a breath of fresh air, my opinion of Corbyn has been formed over a very long time, way back to the 1970's and 80's. It won't be changing any time soon.

I'm a bit disappointed with Corbyn, I had such high hopes that he could change the face of politics and politicians as we have known them for the last 20 years.

[Osem]

Meantime back within the home of democracy:

Pro-Remain MPs are considering using their Commons majority to keep Britain inside the EU single market if there is a vote for Brexit, the BBC has learned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36457120

Ministers have told the BBC they expect pro-EU MPs to conduct what one called a "reverse Maastricht" process - a reference to the long parliamentary campaign fought by Tory eurosceptic MPs in the 1990s against legislation deepening EU integration.

Like then as now, the Conservative government has a small working majority of just 17.

They say it would be legitimate for MPs to push for the UK to stay in the single market because the Leave campaign has refused to spell out what trading relationship it wants the UK to have with the EU in the future.

As such, a post-Brexit government could not claim it had a popular mandate for a particular model.

One minister said: "This is not fantasy. This is a huge probability.

Seems like they might not be too keen on the answer they get to the question they asked. How very typical...

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I'm a bit disappointed with Corbyn, I had such high hopes that he could change the face of politics and politicians as we have known them for the last 20 years.

I am too. He seems to have been elected to be a Leader but has chose to step back from the spotlight. Doing so, no one, specifically the electorate, can get a read of the man in order to really judge him and his policies.

The view the right wing press present is, I suspect, distorted and incomplete. He should be trying to present himself in a more direct and coherent way. For example, I cannot remember him being on the Today programme recently.

As I said earlier, he may have a "cunning plan" in keeping out of the EU Vote mayhem or he may just be rubbish at his job ..

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I am too. He seems to have been elected to be a Leader but has chose to step back from the spotlight. Doing so, no one, specifically the electorate, can get a read of the man in order to really judge him and his policies.

The view the right wing press present is, I suspect, distorted and incomplete. He should be trying to present himself in a more direct and coherent way. For example, I cannot remember him being on the Today programme recently.

As I said earlier, he may have a "cunning plan" in keeping out of the EU Vote mayhem or he may just be rubbish at his job ..

He was making speeches all round the country last week on the EU. The press just aren't reporting it. They are more interested in Tory infighting, can't blame them, it's very entertaining

[Julian]

Originally Posted by ianch99

As I said earlier, he may have a "cunning plan" in keeping out of the EU Vote mayhem or he may just be rubbish at his job ..

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt.........

Originally Posted by Osem

Oh right so it's happening in spite of the EU? I thought one of the reasons being cited to be in the EU is protecting workers' rights. Don't; forget, we're all going to be slaves with our rights torn up if we dare to leave.

Not sure I get where you're coming from? Absolute poverty is not really that relevant to the UK. It's third world countries were it was more endemic. I was pointing out the weird contrast between the fact that inequality is increasing whilst absolute poverty is decreasing. These though are global trends.

Workers rights is a different, very Western, issue which isn't really the same issue as income inequality. We do have better workers rights than the US though if that's your point?

But workers rights is different to income inequality. They're not the same issue.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Osem

Meantime back within the home of democracy:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36457120



Seems like they might not be too keen on the answer they get to the question they asked. How very typical...

The UK will be staying in the the EU whatever the result of this referendum. It won't come down to MPs defying the will of the electorate. There'll be a crisis EU summit, new offer (which will contain nothing new), UK economy slides dramatically in the meantime and people get a second chance to vote the right way in a few months time, having seen their mortgages payments shoot up and their pensions plummet. Referendums are only allowed if you vote the right way.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

Not sure I get where you're coming from? Absolute poverty is not really that relevant to the UK. It's third world countries were it was more endemic. I was pointing out the weird contrast between the fact that inequality is increasing whilst absolute poverty is decreasing. These though are global trends.

Workers rights is a different, very Western, issue which isn't really the same issue as income inequality. We do have better workers rights than the US though if that's your point?

But workers rights is different to income inequality. They're not the same issue.

Right now the EU's commitment to 'workers' rights' seems to involve making it the norm for poorly paid people from all over Europe to undermine the wages and services and therefore the rights of ordinary people elsewhere. Having the right to earn rubbish money isn't all that great but of course for those who aren't affected they're just happy to get their rooves fixed cheaply.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Mr K

He was making speeches all round the country last week on the EU. The press just aren't reporting it. They are more interested in Tory infighting, can't blame them, it's very entertaining

I get the Tory blood letting bit but when if the UK media are consistently not reporting the Leader of the Opposition's speeches then something is not right ..

I thought it was Corbyn just being rubbish at his job

Originally Posted by Osem

Right now the EU's commitment to 'workers' rights' seems to involve making it the norm for poorly paid people from all over Europe to undermine the wages and therefore the rights of ordinary people elsewhere. Having the right to earn rubbish money isn't all that great of course for those who aren't affected they're just happen to get their roof fixed cheaply.

Well you can't really undermine existing wages if a country has a minimum wage. I guess the problem is self-employed tradesman? That's a bit of a mixed bag though because whilst they may undercut the existing traders sometimes the cost of those tradesman can be very high. Plumbers for example are crazy expense per hour. I also wouldn't say those people are the lowest earners either.

You're right though. We do need to do more to stop the richer getting richer at the poor and better distribute income in this country.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Mr K

The UK will be staying in the the EU whatever the result of this referendum. It won't come down to MPs defying the will of the electorate. There'll be a crisis EU summit, new offer (which will contain nothing new), UK economy slides dramatically in the meantime and people get a second chance to vote the right way in a few months time, having seen their mortgages payments shoot up and their pensions plummet. Referendums are only allowed if you vote the right way.

You forgot house prices crashing ..

---------- Post added at 09:22 ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

Well you can't really undermine existing wages if a country has a minimum wage. I guess the problem is self-employed tradesman? That's a bit of a mixed bag though because whilst they may undercut the existing traders sometimes the cost of those tradesman can be very high. Plumbers for example are crazy expense per hour. I also wouldn't say those people are the lowest earners either.

You're right though. We do need to do more to stop the richer getting richer at the poor and better distribute income in this country.

One of the core reasons for the growing wealth disparity is the global corporations exploiting weak national laws to ensure they a) pay the least they get away with, b) provide the minimum benefits and c) minimise the tax they pay on revenues earning in the country they operate.

Although the EU has been at fault in some regards, I think it provides the best vehicle, given its size and power as a large trading block, to ensure corporations balance the emploer/empoyee relationship more towards the employee.

If we leave the EU, the UK with the free market thinking of those current in power will erode the employee rights the EU have brought in over the years in order to encourage companies to come to the UK and "invest".

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I'm a bit disappointed with Corbyn, I had such high hopes that he could change the face of politics and politicians as we have known them for the last 20 years.

I think his problem is the Labour Party. As they are taking a pro EU stance he has to do the same or risk what the Tories are going through.

We know his heart isn't in his speeches and I think he'll probably vote leave in the privacy of the polling booth. That aside, I think once things return to normal in Parliament, we'll see the real Corbyn again.

---------- Post added at 10:24 ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

The UK will be staying in the the EU whatever the result of this referendum. It won't come down to MPs defying the will of the electorate. There'll be a crisis EU summit, new offer (which will contain nothing new), UK economy slides dramatically in the meantime and people get a second chance to vote the right way in a few months time, having seen their mortgages payments shoot up and their pensions plummet. Referendums are only allowed if you vote the right way.

Hello David Cameron. O sorry thought DC had come in for a moment there.

---------- Post added at 10:31 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Meantime back within the home of democracy:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36457120



Seems like they might not be too keen on the answer they get to the question they asked. How very typical...

I have nothing against the Single Market per se. What I'm against is handing our Sovereignty and our hard earned cash over to a bunch of unelected bureaucrats who want to form a United States of Europe as America with a Federal system. Now I have nothing really against Federalism either, I believe it could work in a small country like ours. The point is it would be OURS and not the EU running it.