[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Osem]

Anyone who's remotely interested in us determining our own laws, values, priorities, economic policies etc. etc. etc. needs to vote out because that's the only way we'll be able to do those things. It seems to me that those who'd vote to stay in either don't think the above are sufficiently important reasons to justify leaving, would rather have Brussels bureaucrats telling us what to do or simply don't care.

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Remember that the EU we are in isn't what those who voted to remain in 1975 voted for. Then it was a Common Market - a trade zone only but it has become more of a Political Union as the decades have passed. I voted to leave in 1975 because I knew where it would lead and have the satisfaction of saying I told you so. It doesn't take a genius to work out the next stage, total integration. Despite Britain opting out of this and that, there will come a time where there won't be a choice - they either join the lot or leave. So why not leave now?

Quite right ,i am too young to have voted in '75 but i do remember the referendum and i remember us joining the Common Market and decimalisation .We are often told that the EEC or Common Market was always intended to be a single union for trade , travel and work between European countries as it is now but the trouble was that we didn't have the internet or 24hr rolling news all we had was newspapers and the odd public information film to relay information from the government to the public and in most ways the paper you read in those days governed your politics .My dad told me that the EEC was a trade federation designed to make trading easier between European countries ,he didn't tell me that the EEC was the first step in a United States of Europe simply because he didn't know .Even the question asked in the '75 referendum was misleading
"Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?" note the phrase Common Market ,nothing at all about ever closer political and financial union .What we need now is for our leaders to come clean and say exactly what is intended for Europe and let us decide if we want it.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by martyh

Quite right ,i am too young to have voted in '75 but i do remember the referendum and i remember us joining the Common Market and decimalisation .We are often told that the EEC or Common Market was always intended to be a single union for trade , travel and work between European countries as it is now but the trouble was that we didn't have the internet or 24hr rolling news all we had was newspapers and the odd public information film to relay information from the government to the public and in most ways the paper you read in those days governed your politics .My dad told me that the EEC was a trade federation designed to make trading easier between European countries ,he didn't tell me that the EEC was the first step in a United States of Europe simply because he didn't know .Even the question asked in the '75 referendum was misleading
"Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?" note the phrase Common Market ,nothing at all about ever closer political and financial union .What we need now is for our leaders to come clean and say exactly what is intended for Europe and let us decide if we want it.

They won't do that because they can't. They know most people here don't want to be part of a single state. They'll carry on denying the fact and banging on about vetoes etc. until it gets to the point where sufficient powers are yielded to Brussels that the deal is effectively done for us.

My God why is anyone lauding the EU as if it's some sort of beacon of success and prospering both economically and socially when we already have huge chaos in Greece, massive unemployment in Spain, the French economy in the doldrums, growing concerns about the Italian banks, migration out of control, increasing right wing extremism etc. etc.? How bad does being outside the EU have to be in order to be worse that all that (and more) and why would we want to be further tethered to it? If what I've just described were happening somewhere else I reckon we'd all be delighted to be as far away from it all as possible and doing whatever we could to reduce our exposure to any fallout. What we wouldn't be doing is the complete opposite and voting to become fully paid up members...

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by martyh

Quite right ,i am too young to have voted in '75 but i do remember the referendum and i remember us joining the Common Market and decimalisation .We are often told that the EEC or Common Market was always intended to be a single union for trade , travel and work between European countries as it is now but the trouble was that we didn't have the internet or 24hr rolling news all we had was newspapers and the odd public information film to relay information from the government to the public and in most ways the paper you read in those days governed your politics .My dad told me that the EEC was a trade federation designed to make trading easier between European countries ,he didn't tell me that the EEC was the first step in a United States of Europe simply because he didn't know .Even the question asked in the '75 referendum was misleading
"Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?" note the phrase Common Market ,nothing at all about ever closer political and financial union .What we need now is for our leaders to come clean and say exactly what is intended for Europe and let us decide if we want it.

If anyone is in any doubt This is from 2014 before the European Elections.

We want a United States of Europe says top EU official

Voters must decide for or against a United States of Europe during EU elections this spring, says vice president of the European Commission

A campaign for the European Union to become a "United States of Europe" will be the "best weapon against the Eurosceptics", one of Brussels' most senior officials has said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-official.html

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Gavin78

Judge Dredd coming soon

Snigger if you want to but the joke is on you

---------- Post added at 21:55 ---------- Previous post was at 21:53 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Anyone who's remotely interested in us determining our own laws, values, priorities, economic policies etc. etc. etc. needs to vote out because that's the only way we'll be able to do those things. It seems to me that those who'd vote to stay in either don't think the above are sufficiently important reasons to justify leaving, would rather have Brussels bureaucrats telling us what to do or simply don't care.

Yep

[Gavin78]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Snigger if you want to but the joke is on you

---------- Post added at 21:55 ---------- Previous post was at 21:53 ----------

Yep

You don't think it's coming. Mega city 1 with judge style cops....it might sounds fantasy but a united EU might even consider this in the future with its own little army and police or maybe a united EU will be like star trek and we can all better ourselves for the human race being one happy family lol

That is why we need out I won't be selling my soul to the devil

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Gavin78

You don't think it's coming. Mega city 1 with judge style cops....it might sounds fantasy but a united EU might even consider this in the future with its own little army and police or maybe a united EU will be like star trek and we can all better ourselves for the human race being one happy family lol

That is why we need out I won't be selling my soul to the devil

lol, I read your comment the other way round. I thought you were taking the mick.

[Gavin78]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

lol, I read your comment the other way round. I thought you were taking the mick.

No lol I was referring to the other post as to how a united EU with the UK being part of that and we wouldn't have British police they would be EU police governed by EU laws rather than our own.

Hence the Judge Dredd comment

I'm 45 and my time as an adult has convinced me we are better off out of the EU I'm sorry but I'm just not getting the positives that we are supposedly benefiting from by being a member of the EU and see none in the future. Also talking to a few friends this government is being very selective in what information is being given out and there is a culture of fear within the civil service and even the armed forces if your saying anything other then the government line. Our security is sure as hell not enhanced being in the EU as intelligence sharing has basically been a one-way street for a decade the UK giving a lot out and getting very little back from our European neighbours and our military is certainly not fully behind an in vote.

This government should be ashamed of the way they have handled this and a lot of people voting to stay in may well be very upset in the next couple of years as some things happen they were not told about even though the government is fully aware. There isn't just a campaign of scare and fear mongering going on there is a deliberate withholding of information pertinent to this referendum. I am so sick and tired of the whole spineless political establishment right now that I can't see myself voting for a longtime after this referendum as not one of them us worth the ink on the ballot.

[techguyone]

This is quite factual & concise

http://www.bbc.co.uk/timelines/z9n3qty

It certainly shows that the UK as a whole has always sat fairly uneasily within a European framework. The EU aspiration looks to be realised only by a few politicians with daydreams rather than the will of the people.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by techguyone

This is quite factual & concise

http://www.bbc.co.uk/timelines/z9n3qty

It certainly shows that the UK as a whole has always sat fairly uneasily within a European framework. The EU aspiration looks to be realised only by a few politicians with daydreams rather than the will of the people.

Interesting. And people want to stay? If we vote to stay I think we will live to regret it.

[techguyone]

I don't disagree, but I stated my feelings wayyy back on the thread & I think there's a danger of people repeating ad infinitum and turning people off or even pulling them the other way.

I think people need to make their own minds up and vote as they wish rather than be bullied or chastised into a decision.

That's the biggest fault in both camps they are appealing to the lowest common denominator and playing the fear game, despite the opinion in some quarters of politicians I think the British people are intelligent and able to weigh the merits if they were given the chance. We clearly can't rely on those with the facts to present them in a way that allows people to make an informed choice so personal factors like experience, gut feeling and even hope will have to be the criteria people use in deciding their direction.

That this is the situation in 2016 speaks volumes for how far things have declined.

[jonbxx]

I think for most people, the EU has little to no direct influence in their lives that is visible so a vote either way is a 'heart' rather than 'head' decision. Hence the project fear from both sides. People don't give a monkeys about an x% drop in GDP, hence the ridiculous £4300 figure. Conversely, you get the 'everything is going to be alright' argument if we leave with no real evidence or even plans in place

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by techguyone

I don't disagree, but I stated my feelings wayyy back on the thread & I think there's a danger of people repeating ad infinitum and turning people off or even pulling them the other way.

I think people need to make their own minds up and vote as they wish rather than be bullied or chastised into a decision.

No one here is bullying anyone as far as I can see. Either side presents their case to help those who have said they are undecided.

---------- Post added at 11:29 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I think for most people, the EU has little to no direct influence in their lives that is visible so a vote either way is a 'heart' rather than 'head' decision. Hence the project fear from both sides. People don't give a monkeys about an x% drop in GDP, hence the ridiculous £4300 figure. Conversely, you get the 'everything is going to be alright' argument if we leave with no real evidence or even plans in place

I suggest reading reality check on the BBC site or listening to the News Channel where they analyse what both sides are saying and present the facts. Both sides are, in most cases telling the truth, they are just embellishing what they say to make it sound good.