[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I was hoping for an adult debate about this issue.Seems both sides are determined to stick to rhetoric,hyperbole,supposition without a single real fact between them.Fat chance!

its a family forum so we can expect the debate to be a mixture of ages and opinions, its not just adult opinions that are welcome is it ?

Originally Posted by ianch99

Brexit is getting desperate: Boris is resorting to Hitler comparisons:

EU Referendum: Boris Johnson compares EU's aims to Hitler's

As Basil once said (and Ken recently discovered), "don't mention the war .."

The Brexit Tories are now just UKIP, they have lost the Economic argument and are now just left with just the Immigrant card ..

And here's what Boris actually said

“Napoleon, Hitler, various people tried this out, and it ends tragically,” he says.

“The EU is an attempt to do this by different methods.

“But fundamentally what is lacking is the eternal problem, which is that there is no underlying loyalty to the idea of Europe. There is no single authority that anybody respects or understands. That is causing this massive democratic void.”

and i for one quite agree

[arcimedes]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

its a family forum so we can expect the debate to be a mixture of ages and opinions, its not just adult opinions that are welcome is it ?

I sincerely hope so otherwise discussion on the forum would rapidly dry up

If we were having a discussion about mathematics we could be reasonably certain of the facts. Unfortunately in the real world there is no such thing especially with predictions.

Anyway I think its time we asked France to give us back all our possessions that various English Kings lost.

Originally Posted by martyh

And here's what Boris actually said



and i for one quite agree

Boris is smart enough to know the differences between these things and politically astute enough to know that invoking Hitler would be would grab headlines.

It's not really any more stupid than saying WW3 would kick off had we left but it's a bit disingenuous to be outraged by Cameron saying that and to nod sagely when Boris does the same sorta thing.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Brexit is getting desperate: Boris is resorting to Hitler comparisons

Yep. I read that this morning and I thought:
......and I support Boris!

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

I was referring to the bit that said "ever-closer union” written into the EU's founding treaty"
If something is written as part of a treaty it can hardly be considered a symbolic phrase

Just musing here, but imo, anyone that doesn't actually know what the stated, cast iron, aims of the EU are, what the ultimate goal of the EU is........isn't qualified to be arguing in this thread. They should simply sit quietly and read it, perhaps ask a question or two. But argue (in or out), no.

[Gavin78]

Well to simply put it the EU isn't qualified to run itself. They don't have a clue what is going on so anyone posting on here to be frank is an opinion and not actual fact.

Look at the migration of all these immigrants and the open border policy all went out of the window and the EU start imposing border controls going against their own policy.

When it comes to protecting their own interests all these member states will stab each other in the back and/or the whole clicky clicky you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours.

I personally think the UK has run it's course with the EU it is pretty clear that a lot of the member states don't like us whether there is trade agreements in place or not and I think the UK it tolerated by the EU rather than friends with us.

How many of these states do you think would come to our help in a crisis? the European people couldn't even cast a vote on the Eurovision last night when it came to the UK

It would be nice to or maybe I have missed it but listen to what the EU people think of all this rather than the Governments.

Originally Posted by Damien

Boris is smart enough to know the differences between these things and politically astute enough to know that invoking Hitler would be would grab headlines.

It's not really any more stupid than saying WW3 would kick off had we left but it's a bit disingenuous to be outraged by Cameron saying that and to nod sagely when Boris does the same sorta thing.

Neither parties actually said what the papers said they said .Cameron didn't say the world would descend into WW3 if we leave the EU any more than Boris said the EU was the same as Hitler .It's the media that are twisting what the in/out campaign are saying

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Just musing here, but imo, anyone that doesn't actually know what the stated, cast iron, aims of the EU are, what the ultimate goal of the EU is........isn't qualified to be arguing in this thread. They should simply sit quietly and read it, perhaps ask a question or two. But argue (in or out), no.

Maybe you should start a 'safe space' to debate these things?

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Well let me see:

Bank of England
IMF
The President of the USA
CBI
OECD

Can you provide sources of similar authority advocating the Brexit case?

Boris used to be regarded as a harmless clown. Now he is revealing his true nature: a calculating opportunist. He senses Dave is weak and vulnerable even if he wins the vote and is positioning himself for a Leadership bid even though, he has no national political experience.

Here he is changing his tune when it suits him:

Boris Johnson accused of 'dishonest gymnastics' over TTIP U-turn



I don't think I have read you comparing the EU to a man who committed genocide and being responsible for the deaths of tens of millions?

No not on here I haven't but in the street and at home I have.

Bank of England
IMF
The President of the USA
CBI
OECD

The same institutions who said we were doomed if we didn't join the Euro?
The same institutions who couldn't predict the crash in 2008?
the same institutions who have been wrong on the economy 7 times since 2010? Why listen to them?

---------- Post added at 13:39 ---------- Previous post was at 13:32 ----------

I think both sides have been damaged lately and it's time for the real party to begin.

Get those battle buses out and tell the people the truth.

Oh some undecided will listen to the Economists but as Carney said this morning on Andrew Marr. "We always take the Government's position.' Does this really give his findings any credibility?

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Damien

Maybe you should start a 'safe space' to debate these things?

Nothing to do with me being offended. I'm simply amazed at the lack of basic knowledge about the EU being displayed in this thread.
You know, like what it's primary fecking aim is!!

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Nothing to do with me being offended. I'm simply amazed at the lack of basic knowledge about the EU being displayed in this thread.
You know, like what it's primary fecking aim is!!

It's primary 'feching' aim is to create a United States of Europe. One big happy family under one umbrella. Nice thought in an ideal world but we don't live in an ideal world, do we?

Actually, in all seriousness, it's primary aim was a single market not a political union.

[Ramrod]

From here:http://leaveeu.site44.com/

Jean Monnet (1888 – 1979) often described as the founder of the EU. He came from a wealthy family, and was never elected to any public office; founder in 1955 of the Action Committee for the United States of Europe

"Europe's nations should be guided towards a super state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."

Jacques Delors (born 1925) - President of the European Commission and the first person to serve three terms in that office (between January 1985 and January 1995).

"We're not here to make a single market – that doesn't interest me – but to make a political union." (1993).

Jose Manuel Barosso (born 1956) - President of the European Commission, serving from 2004 to 2014

"Sometimes I like to compare the EU as a creation to the organisation of empire. We have the dimension of empire" (2007)

Jean-Claude Juncker (born 1954) - President of the European Commission, serving from 2014

On the 2005 French referendum on the Lisbon Treaty “If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue' ”.

“When it becomes serious, you have to lie”. (2013)

“There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties”. (2015)

---------- Post added at 14:09 ---------- Previous post was at 14:07 ----------

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Actually, in all seriousness, it's primary aim was a single market not a political union.

I disagree. It's always been about power. Trade was (and is) used to sneak it into power.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I disagree. It's always been about power. Trade was (and is) used to sneak it into power.

I agree 100%, especially after watching and listening to debates and information on French media.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Taf

I agree 100%, especially after watching and listening to debates and information on French media.

What's the French media saying in general?

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Taf

I agree 100%, especially after watching and listening to debates and information on French media.

Yep power too. They get that by creating a USE. They get it by us staying in.