[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Small world
We were in the stalls (first tier). Looking up from the stage we would have been at 11 o'clock.
We were surrounded by left wing remanians (judging by what they were saying). I had to shush them several times as they were chattering so loudly over the 'in' campaigners that I couldn't hear what was being said!
I could have easily had a punch up with the pair behind us-well dressed chaps, well spoken, but they didn't realise that I'd heard them refer to me as "that Telegraph reading ar*ehole" ( I was reading it on my phone before the debate started)
I thought Nick Clegg wasn't very gentlemanly. He kept talking over the Tory woman & I loved the way that Farage kept telling him to "stop lying" about various facts and figures

Farage vs Clegg was by far more interesting than the other two.

I was in the third tier and the audience there was left-wing too although I should you expect it for a Guardian debate. I don't really like heckling or audience members expressing their disapproval to each other in a very obvious way either. The audience was a bit more balanced at the top though and there was at least one guy who was shouting stuff all though.

You may have preferred The Spectator one in the same venue a few weeks later. It was already sold out by the time I saw it but that would have been a more right-wing audience. Clegg was there too as was Daniel Hannan who I used like but now sort of find him very intellectually dishonest.

Originally Posted by martyh

Nobody has suggested any illegality though ,what the issue is ,is that monies aimed at small farmers is being used by rich farmers who's estates are self sufficient .It's a bit like millionaires claiming the state pension

You are confusing red-top press rabid hyperbole with reality.

The CAP is not meant to support 'smal farmers', no matter what the Express says...

What is the CAP?

The common agricultural policy allows European farmers to meet the needs of 500 million Europeans. Its main objectives are to ensure a decent standard of living for farmers and to provide a stable and safe food supply at affordable prices for consumers.

The CAP has changed a lot since it was established in 1962, and continues to change today. The June 2013 reform is focused on three priorities:

viable food production
sustainable management of natural resources
balanced development of rural areas throughout the EU.

How is the budget used?

The CAP's budget is spent in 3 different ways:

Income support for farmers and assistance for complying with sustainable agricultural practices: farmers receive direct payments, provided they live up to strict standards relating to food safety, environmental protection and animal health and welfare. These payments are fully financed by the EU, and account for 70% of the CAP budget. Under the June 2013 reform, 30% of direct payments will be linked to European farmers' compliance with sustainable agricultural practices which are beneficial to soil quality, biodiversity and the environment generally, such as crop diversification, the maintenance of permanent grassland or the preservation of ecological areas on farms.

Market-support measures: these come into play, for example, when adverse weather conditions destabilise markets. Such payments account for less than 10% of the CAP budget.

Rural development measures: these are intended to help farmers modernise their farms and become more competitive, while protecting the environment, contributing to the diversification of farming and non-farming activities and the vitality of rural communities. These payments are part-financed by the member countries, generally extend over a number of years, and account for some 20% of the CAP's budget.

These three areas are closely interrelated and must be managed coherently. For example, direct payments provide farmers with a steady income and reward them for providing environmental benefits which are in the public interest.

Likewise, rural development measures make it easier to modernise farms while encouraging diversification of activities in rural areas.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-631_en.htm

Nothing about 'small farmers' there...

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

You are confusing red-top press rabid hyperbole with reality.

The CAP is not meant to support 'smal farmers', no matter what the Express says...





http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-631_en.htm

Nothing about 'small farmers' there...

what would the EU and the extended Cameron family do without you defending handouts .

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Damien

Farage vs Clegg was by far more interesting than the other two.

I was in the third tier and the audience there was left-wing too although I should you expect it for a Guardian debate. I don't really like heckling or audience members expressing their disapproval to each other in a very obvious way either. The audience was a bit more balanced at the top though and there was at least one guy who was shouting stuff all though.

You may have preferred The Spectator one in the same venue a few weeks later. It was already sold out by the time I saw it but that would have been a more right-wing audience. Clegg was there too as was Daniel Hannan who I used like but now sort of find him very intellectually dishonest.

I missed the Spectator one as well. Gutted about that. You can see it here if you want to. Enjoyed the Guardian one despite the sillyness from the remanians sat around me and was pleased that 'out' won the evenings debate even though it was a tough audience.

---------- Post added at 21:01 ---------- Previous post was at 20:56 ----------

Originally Posted by arcimedes

If you cant keep your audience even for more than a minute or so, you need to rethink your strategy.

Here you go then: Brexit: The (animated) Movie
For those, like arcimedes, with short attention spans. It's got more graphics & gets to the point more succinctly. Easily understood.
A good vid nevertheless.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

what would the EU and the extended Cameron family do without you defending handouts .

Or as it's normally known, pointing out facts...

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Or as it's normally known, pointing out facts...

Odd that you didn't point out this mans conflict of interest in campaigning for remain, it might have been different if he'd declared said interest but he either isn't honest enough to have done that or doesn't believe in the righteousness of his cause to divulge. I'm sure it wouldn't have escaped your attention if it'd been the Labour leader doing the same. Actually it's not odd, there is seemingly nothing your won't defend the conservative party from.

The worst thing people can do in this referendum is follow political party lines as all that has done in recent times has divided us and been a good distraction allowing politicians of all colours to be less then honourable. It really comes down to the simple question of are we better off in the eu or out in the mid to longterm and vote accordingly. I think the referendum will show a gap between the older and younger more then elections do as younger people have grown up under the eu they haven't known a world without and older can remember that politicians and their lunacy aside the uk is perfectly able to survive outside of the eu and prosper.

[ianch99]

Brexit is getting desperate: Boris is resorting to Hitler comparisons:

EU Referendum: Boris Johnson compares EU's aims to Hitler's

As Basil once said (and Ken recently discovered), "don't mention the war .."

The Brexit Tories are now just UKIP, they have lost the Economic argument and are now just left with just the Immigrant card ..

He's been swapping notes with Ken Livingstone

[papa smurf]

[QUOTE=ianch99;35837724]Brexit is getting desperate: Boris is resorting to Hitler comparisons:

EU Referendum: Boris Johnson compares EU's aims to Hitler's

As Basil once said (and Ken recently discovered), "don't mention the war .."

The Brexit Tories are now just UKIP, they have lost the Economic argument and are now just left with just the Immigrant card ..[/QUO

- was it not Cameron who cited world wars for a reason for staying in Europe so we can keep an eye on them ?

[Big Brian]

A

Originally Posted by ianch99

Brexit is getting desperate: Boris is resorting to Hitler comparisons:

EU Referendum: Boris Johnson compares EU's aims to Hitler's

As Basil once said (and Ken recently discovered), "don't mention the war .."

The Brexit Tories are now just UKIP, they have lost the Economic argument and are now just left with just the Immigrant card ..

Isn't he just saying what we are thinking? If you want a super state then by all means vote remain.



---------- Post added at 08:33 ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 ----------

[QUOTE=papa smurf;35837728]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Brexit is getting desperate: Boris is resorting to Hitler comparisons:

EU Referendum: Boris Johnson compares EU's aims to Hitler's

As Basil once said (and Ken recently discovered), "don't mention the war .."

The Brexit Tories are now just UKIP, they have lost the Economic argument and are now just left with just the Immigrant card ..[/QUO

- was it not Cameron who cited world wars for a reason for staying in Europe so we can keep an eye on them ?

Who said we have lost the economic argument? Not from where I sit we haven't. We are also left with the independence and sovereignty cards.

Boris is right. How can you berate a man for telling the truth? Yes it's a bit strong - a shock tactic, not desperation.

The Germans couldn't do it in 2 world wars. The French couldn't do it in Napoleon's time. The EU will not succeed either if we vote leave. We've all said it and not a word has been said but when Boris says it he is berated for it. Cameron used the soldiers who died in both wars to justify a Remain vote, what's the difference? It makes me so angry.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Isn't he just saying what we are thinking? If you want a super state then by all means vote remain.

Who said we have lost the economic argument?

Well let me see:

Bank of England
IMF
The President of the USA
CBI
OECD

Can you provide sources of similar authority advocating the Brexit case?

Boris used to be regarded as a harmless clown. Now he is revealing his true nature: a calculating opportunist. He senses Dave is weak and vulnerable even if he wins the vote and is positioning himself for a Leadership bid even though, he has no national political experience.

Here he is changing his tune when it suits him:

Boris Johnson accused of 'dishonest gymnastics' over TTIP U-turn

We've all said it and not a word has been said but when Boris says it he is berated for it. Cameron used the soldiers who died in both wars to justify a Remain vote, what's the difference? It makes me so angry.

I don't think I have read you comparing the EU to a man who committed genocide and being responsible for the deaths of tens of millions?

I was hoping for an adult debate about this issue.Seems both sides are determined to stick to rhetoric,hyperbole,supposition without a single real fact between them.Fat chance!

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I was hoping for an adult debate about this issue.Seems both sides are determined to stick to rhetoric,hyperbole,supposition without a single real fact between them.Fat chance!

Continuing the adult debate , they think it's all over, well it is now! ABBA (ok, Bjorn) has spoken:

Abba's Björn Ulvaeus on UK's European Union referendum

Originally Posted by Hugh

You are confusing red-top press rabid hyperbole with reality.

The CAP is not meant to support 'smal farmers', no matter what the Express says...

Nothing about 'small farmers' there...

Originally Posted by Hugh

Or as it's normally known, pointing out facts...

I think you've been a bit selective about the facts there Hugh .Every single piece of literature about the reformed CAP states quite clearly that those reforms are partly aimed at small farmers ,to redistribute the monies more effectively and fairly .These reforms took effect in 2014 and were the result of 3yrs of negotiations with member states

This PDF outlines the reforms and the purpose behind them

This is the relevant bit

Member States also have the option to
further target direct payments through other
optional schemes. A redistributive
payment can be attributed to the first
hectares of the farms, to provide more
targeted support to small and medium-sized
farms. A specific and simplified support
scheme for small farmers will substantially
facilitate their access to direct payments and
reduce their administrative burden. Member
States may also grant limited coupled
support to secure the future of potentially
vulnerable sectors

At the moment 80% of CAP aid goes to 25% of farms ,most of the budget goes to mega farms owned by the likes of Camerons father in law even Nestle get given millions whilst the small farms get very little. The reforms are meant to redirect CAP subsidies to smaller farms and young farmers starting up .
Whilst CAP is there to help all farmers large and small it is simply not true to say that CAP is not there to help small farmers because the purpose of some of the reforms is precisely that .