Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

Ok Hugh.,

So where does all the millions go, that is pumped into the NHS each year.

You cannot ask a Doctor, especially Junior Doctors to work extreme unsocial hours for a pittance of a wage,

All they are asking is a decent wage, what is wrong in that. Our lives are in THERE HANDS.

Its like me, l work with the vulnerable each day, and my wage has been pegged to 1%.

You cannot expect people to work for nothing

if you work in a nice comfortable office 9-5 5days a week and earn 2-3 times the average wage get nice long lunch breaks lots of tea breaks with the odd fancy cake in the afternoon of course you can expect others to work 90 hrs a week for nothing after all your doing your bit why can't they .

Originally Posted by papa smurf

if you work in a nice comfortable office 9-5 5days a week and earn 2-3 times the average wage get nice long lunch breaks lots of tea breaks with the odd fancy cake in the afternoon of course you can expect others to work 90 hrs a week for nothing after all your doing your bit why can't they .

I think you may have been watching too many 1950's British black & white films....

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

I think you may have been watching too many 1950's British black & white films....

ok mr Grimsdale

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Hugh, l don't go by figures. I go for the fact, that Drs and Nurses should get more money.

When l was in hospital with chest pains nearly two years ago. I was treated well by Drs and Nurses, and they were all brilliant. And my motto is, If they look after me and my family to the best of there ability.

I will look after them.

Its like all to the cuts to our vital services, the NHS, Fire Service, police and LAS are treated shabbily by a Government, that think instead of spending money on OUR vital services. They send BILLIONS, yes, BILLIONS overseas in AID. and they are PROUD of this.

[nomadking]

And what has extra money got to do with claimed reasons for the strike? Eg On banners shown on the news, "increase stress", "not safe", "less safe", "tired doctors make mistakes". Yet there are to be fewer hours and mechanisms(ie guardians) in place to enforce better working hours.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

Hugh, l don't go by figures. I go for the fact, that Drs and Nurses should get more money.

When l was in hospital with chest pains nearly two years ago. I was treated well by Drs and Nurses, and they were all brilliant. And my motto is, If they look after me and my family to the best of there ability.

I will look after them.

Its like all to the cuts to our vital services, the NHS, Fire Service, police and LAS are treated shabbily by a Government, that think instead of spending money on OUR vital services. They send BILLIONS, yes, BILLIONS overseas in AID. and they are PROUD of this.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Arthur, do you actually read anything that others post, or are you so busy raging against the dying of the light that you can't be bothered looking for a light switch?

In the quote I posted above what you have just posted, it says there are over 32000 more doctors than 10 years ago, over 18000 more nurses, and nearly 6000 more GPs and 1688 practice nurses, with an additional 12342 allied health professionals. Medical school intake has risen from 3749 per year in 1997 to 6262 per year in 2012/13.

If you clicked on the link I provided, you would have seen we now have 150,273 doctors, 377191 qualified nursing staff, and 155,960 qualified scientific, therapeutic and technical staff.

You would have seen that there were nearly 16 million hospital admission in 2014/15, nearly a third more than 10 years earlier; you would have seen that there were 22.364 million attendances at A&E in 2014/15, a quarter more than 10 years before; you would have seen there were 85.632 million outpatient attendances, and that there has been a 18.5% increase in emergency incidents in the last five years, and that there has been an increase in the people with diabetes to 3.2 million.

Arthur, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you...

Yeah but

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

where does all the millions go, that is pumped into the NHS each year.

Originally Posted by nomadking

And what has extra money got to do with claimed reasons for the strike? Eg On banners shown on the news, "increase stress", "not safe", "less safe", "tired doctors make mistakes". Yet there are to be fewer hours and mechanisms(ie guardians) in place to enforce better working hours.

The way I understand it the safeguards are being watered down and the mechanisms all but removed

[progers]

Originally Posted by martyh

The only ones being intransigent are the doctors ,they have a good offer actually better than they originally wanted ,they need to stop whining and get on with their jobs

It appears to be a good offer but nearly all of them will lose money under the new contract; what we need to see is a comparison of before and after for a doctor but the Govt won't do that, I wonder why?

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by martyh

The only ones being intransigent are the doctors ,they have a good offer actually better than they originally wanted ,they need to stop whining and get on with their jobs

There's one side refusing to talk any longer, one side refusing compromise solution proposed by cross party MPs, one side spoiling for a fight, one side who have a bigger plan to run down the NHS so they can implement their privatisation masterplan. It's not the Doctor's that are being 'intransigent'.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Yeah but



The way I understand it the safeguards are being watered down and the mechanisms all but removed

Has anybody, especially the junior doctors actually read the new contract?

• Maximum average 48 hour working week (reduced from 56) with hours for doctors who opt out of the WTR capped at maximum average of 56 working hours per week.
• Maximum 72 hours’ work in any seven day period (reduced from 91).
• Maximum shift length of 13 hours (reduced from 14 hours).
• Maximum of five consecutive long (>10 hours) shifts (reduced from seven) with minimum 48 hours rest after a run of five consecutive long shifts (up from 11 hours rest).
• Maximum of four consecutive night shifts (reduced from seven) with minimum 48 hours rest after a run of either three or four consecutive night shifts (up from 11 hours rest).
• Maximum of four consecutive long, late evening shifts (>10 hours finishing after 11pm) with minimum 48 hours rest after four consecutive long, late evening shifts (up from 11 hours rest).
• No doctor should be rostered to work consecutive weekends without written agreement and even with that agreement, no more frequently than one weekend in two.
• Maximum eight consecutive shifts with 48 hours’ rest after eight consecutive shifts (reduced from 12 consecutive shifts).
• No more than three rostered on-calls in seven days except by agreement, with guaranteed rest arrangements where overnight rest is disturbed.

If your rota does not meet these rules, which were all agreed following negotiations with the BMA, it will need to be changed to comply with them.

5. How can doctors be protected from excess hours if there will no longer be a financial penalty for employers?
The system of exception reporting outlined in the 2016 contract will ensure that departures from planned working hours, working pattern or access to planned training opportunities are recorded. Work schedule reviews will take place where this happens consistently and can be requested by the employer or the doctor.
The role of the independent guardian of safe working is an important innovation designed to reassure junior doctors and employers that rotas and working conditions are safe for doctors and patients. The guardian role is likely to be undertaken by an existing member of staff appointed jointly with junior doctors and in line with a national person specification.
The guardian will oversee the work schedule review process and address concerns relating to hours worked and access to training opportunities. They will support safe care for patients through protection and prevention measures to stop doctors working excessive hours and have the power to invoke a new system of financial penalties to be applied where doctors are found to be working excessive hours.

The workloads are being reduced, work patterns eased and a new mechanism put in place. Hardly dismantling anything, is it?

---------- Post added at 08:54 ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

There's one side refusing to talk any longer, one side refusing compromise solution proposed by cross party MPs, one side spoiling for a fight, one side who have a bigger plan to run down the NHS so they can implement their privatisation masterplan. It's not the Doctor's that are being 'intransigent'.

It is effectively already being piloted as it is being implemented in stages.

only 11% of junior docs go on to new contracts in August. We’re staging implementation to ensure it works as intended. Any further delay just means we will take longer to eliminate weekend effect.”
...
“The intention has always been to introduce the new contract in phases, and as I understand it, fewer than 20% of doctors will have the new contract in August, so that’s always been part of the plan.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Has anybody, especially the junior doctors actually read the new contract?The workloads are being reduced, work patterns eased and a new mechanism put in place. Hardly dismantling anything, is it?

---------- Post added at 08:54 ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 ----------

It is effectively already being piloted as it is being implemented in stages.

The hospital now fines itself money for breaking the rules, does the hospital give itself a stiff talking to as well, the safe guards are being watered down according to them and I know who I believe

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

The hospital now fines itself money for breaking the rules, does the hospital give itself a stiff talking to as well, the safe guards are being watered down according to them and I know who I believe

The new guardian of safe working role, hereafter referred to as the guardian, will be:

• a senior person
• independent of the management structure within the trust
• responsible for protecting the safeguards outlined in the terms and conditions of service (TCS) for doctors and dentists in training. (Link to be added)

What will the guardian be responsible for?
The guardian will:

• act as the champion of safe working hours for doctors in approved training programmes
• distribute monies received as a consequence of financial penalties to improve the training and service experience of doctors.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by denphone

It would be nice if both sides could get together and sort this out instead of this deep intransigence on both sides currently.

They've been locked head-to-head for years over this already. Neither side willing to budge it seems.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by nomadking

.

The hospital will be fining itself and redistributing the money within the hosputal in other words, sounds like a great saftey mechanism

[Osem]

On balance I reckon they've got a pretty good deal and the strike tomorrow is a step too far which will lose them quite a bit of public support.