[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[papa smurf]

Osborne's 3million migrants clanger:

Tory MPs tore into George Osborne last night over a pro-EU dossier that says migration will add three million to the population.
They accused the Chancellor of making ‘unbelievable’ claims that families would be hammered and the nation left permanently poorer by leaving the Brussels club.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz46Fbnn3rW
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[Osem]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

Osborne's 3million migrants clanger:

Tory MPs tore into George Osborne last night over a pro-EU dossier that says migration will add three million to the population.
They accused the Chancellor of making ‘unbelievable’ claims that families would be hammered and the nation left permanently poorer by leaving the Brussels club.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz46Fbnn3rW
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Quelle surprise...

It strikes me as odd that further massive, rapid, population growth doesn't seem to be of concern to these people. Maybe they're not really worried about our already creaking services and infrastructure. Maybe they're not worried about all the people (illegal and not) living in garden sheds, crammed into unsafe and illegal multiple occupancy dwellings. Maybe they're not worried about the black economy many of these people exist within and help to growth. Maybe they're not worried about who these people are at all, what risks they may pose etc.

Anyway I've been listening to some more radio callers today and it seems the younger element prize majorly important stuff like being able to go to Paris without showing their passport. Nice, yes but I haven't yet heard any of them commenting on just what good the EU had done for their young peers in Greece, Portugal, Spain, France, Italy etc. who're unemployed in vast numbers. Maybe they ought to consider that but I suppose they feel comforted that when the EU doesn't work, people can at least just go somewhere else to live. What they're maybe overlooking is that those people are coming here in increasingly large numbers there's only so many jobs to go around so when things go bad here again just which countries are our youth planning to take their skills to? Where in the EU are they going to find jobs in large numbers?

If ever the was a policy which embodied 'quantity over quality' this has to be it. Why would successive governments be quite happy to see the UK experience even more rapid population growth than we've already had over the last decade or so when we patently can't cope with what we already have. It seems to me that for those who don't comprise the well off and elite, it's going to be a race to the bottom in terms of jobs, wages, lifestyles, communities, housing, services, social cohesion, the environment and future prospects. Are those people who complain about such things now seriously going to vote to add millions more people to the problem? To my mind the benefits to the ordinary man of EU membership are far outweighed by the evidence before our eyes all across Europe. Focus on that thought before putting your X in the 'IN' box.

Originally Posted by Osem

If ever the was a policy which embodied 'quantity over quality' this has to be it. Why would successive governments be quite happy to see the UK experience even more rapid population growth than we've already had over the last decade or so when we patently can't cope with what we already have. It seems to me that for those who don't comprise the well off and elite, it's going to be a race to the bottom in terms of jobs, wages, lifestyles, communities, housing, services, social cohesion, the environment and future prospects. Are those people who complain about such things now seriously going to vote to add millions more people to the problem? To my mind the benefits to the ordinary man of EU membership are far outweighed by the evidence before our eyes all across Europe. Focus on that thought before putting your X in the 'IN' box.

If the predictions of a fall in growth from leaving, which has been predicted from far more than just the government, come true then the ordinary man will feel that as will public services. A recession has very real consequences for those young people, for workers and for the poor. The 'well-off and elite' suffer far less from recessions than those that live month to month and don't have large savings or pensions to fall back on. If anything the well-off and elite are in a better position to take the risk.

It's still not clear that Brexit won't still result in us having to accept freedom of movement in return for access to the single market. So we may have those numbers coming here anyway.

Can we get something clear please, because there has been a lot of mendacious misrepresentation of these growth figures.

The prediction is that the economy would be 6.8% short of where it would otherwise have been in 2030, not 6.8% reduced from where it is now. The economy is going to grow, whether we are in or out, according to yesterday's announcement.

Furthermore, the size of the economy today is around 6% adrift of where it was forecast to be in 2010. Despite all the usual shouting and yelling about cuts and austerity, the country is not, frankly, on its knees.

And let's not even get into the highly dubious practice of conflating loss of GDP with a direct loss of household income, which is what the headline spin invited us to do yesterday.

[Osem]

Growth in population equates to growth in GDP but doesn't necessarily mean things are better for ordinary people - far from it. Despite what growth we've had wages have stagnated, pension provisions have been cut and services put under extraordinary pressure.

Across Europe, young people especially are seeing what 'good' the EU and the Euro has done for them. They've been effectively forced to move like some sort of mobile slave army leaving their own countries and families behind. Unless we're all one day going to be forced to exist like ants, population growth has to be taken under control. No country can be put in a position where it has to accept unlimited free movement of people but inside the EU that's the reality not a maybe. Only by getting out can we hope to have any control of migration from the EU and that will include the millions of migrants from around the globe who will one day be granted EU passports and equally be able to come here.
What good is that going to do our young people?

[Ignitionnet]

So that went well.

https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/sta...45321347616768

Chris Ship

Odds of a LEAVE vote have *shortened* a little after Osborne's gloomy warning yesterday, say @Ladbrokes: now 7/4 up from 2/1

---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 ----------

If I may also say talking of total GDP is nonsense.

I don't care at all about total GDP. I care about real GDP per capita. Nothing else is relevant.

Originally Posted by Bircho

Why would the Government be neutral on the matter? By the process of being in Government, they govern based on their policies, and their policy is to remain in the EU. When they introduce a new piece of legislation, the introduce it with their viewpoint and benefits, not a balanced view.

It is usually the position of the Opposition to oppose the Governments viewpoint - except with the EU, the Opposition also supports staying in. As do every all but one other party in Parliament. The only ones who want out are around 44% of the Conservatives, around 3% of Labour MPs and the DUP. In fact, just under 25% of all MPs want out whilst 75% want to stay in. And of course Nigel Farage and George Galloway want out.

So overall in Parliament, the people we elect, 3/4 want to remain in the EU.

Normally i would agree with you but in this instance we are having a referendum to make policy which the government will be obliged to implement .In my opinion the government should not have a policy on whether to leave the EU or not until the people have spoken .

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Chris

Can we get something clear please, because there has been a lot of mendacious misrepresentation of these growth figures.

The prediction is that the economy would be 6.8% short of where it would otherwise have been in 2030, not 6.8% reduced from where it is now. The economy is going to grow, whether we are in or out, according to yesterday's announcement.

Furthermore, the size of the economy today is around 6% adrift of where it was forecast to be in 2010. Despite all the usual shouting and yelling about cuts and austerity, the country is not, frankly, on its knees.

And let's not even get into the highly dubious practice of conflating loss of GDP with a direct loss of household income, which is what the headline spin invited us to do yesterday.

to be honest the wizard of oz can't work out the economic forecast for next week without revising it .

[Osem]

I'd like to know who these astute economic forecasters are and why their like clearly haven't been employed ensuring that just about every infrastructure, defence, govt. IT project etc. etc. doesn't turn out massively over budget. Odd that...

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by martyh

Normally i would agree with you but in this instance we are having a referendum to make policy which the government will be obliged to implement .In my opinion the government should not have a policy on whether to leave the EU or not until the people have spoken .

And where does itr state "In law" that the Government have to listen to the people?

This referendum, no matter what the result, is not legally binding.

It is political suicide for the party in power to ignore the will of the "people" and could trigger an election if the party in power did not agree with the result.

Then you will get a situation as in pre 1975 where a Labour govenment was elected on a mandate of getting us out of the then ECC, put it to a referendum, pushed for it with all their might to keep us in and we are where we are now.

Never trust a politician or anything that comes out of their mouths!

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Chris

Can we get something clear please, because there has been a lot of mendacious misrepresentation of these growth figures.

The prediction is that the economy would be 6.8% short of where it would otherwise have been in 2030, not 6.8% reduced from where it is now. The economy is going to grow, whether we are in or out, according to yesterday's announcement.

Furthermore, the size of the economy today is around 6% adrift of where it was forecast to be in 2010. Despite all the usual shouting and yelling about cuts and austerity, the country is not, frankly, on its knees.

And let's not even get into the highly dubious practice of conflating loss of GDP with a direct loss of household income, which is what the headline spin invited us to do yesterday.

Clarity is not going to be forthcoming from either camps but what is clear is.

1 You don't have to have a trade agreement to trade.
2 You don't have to be in the EU to benefit from the Single Market.
3 You would not be tied up in all their red tape.
4 If we vote to leave the EU will break up.
5 Yes there will be uncertainty at the start.
6 The Treasury haven't hit one prediction in 6 years.

I could go on.

Actually, you do have to have a trade agreement to trade with other countries - if you don't (with whoever), what is to stop countries implementing tariffs and taxes on our goods and services...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35473279

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Clarity is not going to be forthcoming from either camps but what is clear is.

1 You don't have to have a trade agreement to trade. Germay no longer wish to sell cars to us?
2 You don't have to be in the EU to benefit from the Single Market.What have we benefitted from the single market that we hadn't benifited before?
3 You would not be tied up in all their red tape.Not sure about this as the govenment minions have to justiffy their existanhce.
4 If we vote to leave the EU will break up.So we are so important to it ? I don't think so.
5 Yes there will be uncertainty at the startOOf course but can it be any worse?
6 The Treasury haven't hit one prediction in 6 years.Who listens to them?

I could go on.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Actually, you do have to have a trade agreement to trade with other countries - if you don't (with whoever), what is to stop countries implementing tariffs and taxes on our goods and services...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35473279

Actually I know this but it isn't a necessity.

[pip08456]

I can see a world tomorrow with no BMW's No VW's and then I woke up!