[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by martyh

Quite agree ,i think the government are behaving disgracefully in this the biggest decision in a generation for the UK people .They should be giving facts for both sides of the argument not campaigning for one side

I expected nothing less from them. that's why i made my decision on which way i would vote before all the lies started.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

How come every figure they come up with is wrong yet everything your side say is gospel, starting to think both sides in this are just full of ****

I don't recall claiming it was. I did say the BBC pulled it to bits.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

I don't recall claiming it was. I did say the BBC pulled it to bits.

No you didn't, not unless the bbc use terms like codswallop or pro eu garbage

---------- Post added at 18:56 ---------- Previous post was at 18:53 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Quite agree ,i think the government are behaving disgracefully in this the biggest decision in a generation for the UK people .They should be giving facts for both sides of the argument not campaigning for one side

Disgusting is a good term. I had hoped once the excitement had died down over the referendum we'd have a proper debate on it like adults but if anything the lies are growing bigger and more outlandish from all concerned as time marches on

[Bircho]

Why would the Government be neutral on the matter? By the process of being in Government, they govern based on their policies, and their policy is to remain in the EU. When they introduce a new piece of legislation, the introduce it with their viewpoint and benefits, not a balanced view.

It is usually the position of the Opposition to oppose the Governments viewpoint - except with the EU, the Opposition also supports staying in. As do every all but one other party in Parliament. The only ones who want out are around 44% of the Conservatives, around 3% of Labour MPs and the DUP. In fact, just under 25% of all MPs want out whilst 75% want to stay in. And of course Nigel Farage and George Galloway want out.

So overall in Parliament, the people we elect, 3/4 want to remain in the EU.

The FT have done a breakdown of some elements of that report: https://next.ft.com/content/a3ae78d8...1-0fb5e65703ce

They're saying that it's higher than most projections because of how they've done it but that almost all models say we'll lose out:

While almost every economic model has suggested Brexit will hit economic performance and productivity, the government’s estimate is higher than those published by the CBI employers’ organisation, Oxford Economics and Open Europe. The main reason for this appears to be the dynamic modelling strategy which is broader, but less certain than models which give smaller results.

Although they also state that their projections aren't too dissimilar to that of the LSE.

The thing here is that as well as the government you also have organisations like the LSE, the CBI, the Bank of England, the IMF and major companies saying that the UK will be hit economically by Brexit. Two of the most economically literate publications in the country, the Economist and the FT, seem to be pretty much backing Remain too. Vote Leave's reaction to that is that they're all wrong, scaremongering and that we will get better trade deals. Yet they seem to have very little backing from economists, institutions and companies.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Bircho

Why would the Government be neutral on the matter? By the process of being in Government, they govern based on their policies, and their policy is to remain in the EU. When they introduce a new piece of legislation, the introduce it with their viewpoint and benefits, not a balanced view.

It is usually the position of the Opposition to oppose the Governments viewpoint - except with the EU, the Opposition also supports staying in. As do every all but one other party in Parliament. The only ones who want out are around 44% of the Conservatives, around 3% of Labour MPs and the DUP. In fact, just under 25% of all MPs want out whilst 75% want to stay in. And of course Nigel Farage and George Galloway want out.

So overall in Parliament, the people we elect, 3/4 want to remain in the EU.

I don't mind them not being neutral, I mind them lying, misrepresenting, gerrymandering, and all other forms of dishonesty they've performed in the run up to this referendum, that's what's disgusting

What gerrymandering, please?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hugh

What gerrymandering, please?

You don't think politicians are manipulating these figures they seemingly pluck out of the air?

Gerrymandering is changing constituency boundaries to favour a party, not misrepresenting information.

[nomadking]

You have to assume that all this supposed lost productivity is due to lost exports. If that is so, then the other EU countries would benefit from getting the trade instead. Why aren't the other EU countries pleased to see us go then?

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Gerrymandering is changing constituency boundaries to favour a party, not misrepresenting information.

your right -they are just plain old fashioned lying

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Gerrymandering is changing constituency boundaries to favour a party, not misrepresenting information.

Thanks, I thought it was political manipulation of pretty much anything, including boundaries.

[Mr K]

The Treasurys Brexit forecast 'workings out' have been leaked:-

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Disgusting is a good term. I had hoped once the excitement had died down over the referendum we'd have a proper debate on it like adults but if anything the lies are growing bigger and more outlandish from all concerned as time marches on

I think it was a bit naive to expect that to be honest. More than anything though what really are the facts? It's hard to exactly quantify the costs because we simply do not know what deal with emerge in the aftermath of Brexit. There are numbers on import/export but they're disputed and they don't take into account the auxiliary effects, i.e a german car manufacturing plant moving back to Germany would hit the businesses around the plant, a lack of EU workers may help those for whom EU workers are competitors in the local job market.

Even with the hard figures we have you then have to ask, well, what does that mean? People talk about doing their own research but we all fall prone to confirming our own biases. I try to link to papers that at least have a considered tone on the issue, i.e the FT earlier, but those papers still have a position.

You're just going to have to find sources you trust and see from there. In the end no one is going to come down from above and gift you a correct answer.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Damien

I think it was a bit naive to expect that to be honest. More than anything though what really are the facts? It's hard to exactly quantify the costs because we simply do not know what deal with emerge in the aftermath of Brexit. There are numbers on import/export but they're disputed and they don't take into account the auxiliary effects, i.e a german car manufacturing plant moving back to Germany would hit the businesses around the plant, a lack of EU workers may help those for whom EU workers are competitors in the local job market.

Even with the hard figures we have you then have to ask, well, what does that mean? People talk about doing their own research but we all fall prone to confirming our own biases. I try to link to papers that at least have a considered tone on the issue, i.e the FT earlier, but those papers still have a position.

You're just going to have to find sources you trust and see from there. In the end no one is going to come down from above and gift you a correct answer.

Yeah silly me for expecting politicians to be honest and that is how I will vote, based on what's best for the little man and not for what's in the interest of politicians or big business