[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Kursk]

Please, everyone, if you don't want the leaflet or any others that might follow, just bin it. Let's not waste the time and effort of others in an attempt to make any kind of political point that will fall on deaf ears.

[arcimedes]

Full control of our borders means that we know who is coming in and out (apart from the illegals), not that we can control the numbers.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Bircho

Given that now the sides who get the funding are announced and that both sides get one free leaflet drop (which at 33p each will cost about £9 million each side to get to 27 million households) on top of their other £7 million, can someone tell me where I return the leave leaflet to when I get it, please?

Just burn it

[Osem]

Just got our leaflet - in fact it came in the first second delivery in one day we've had in ages so presumably in certain areas the volume of mail is such that there's a need to put extra staff on the job.

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:21 ----------

Originally Posted by arcimedes

Full control of our borders means that we know who is coming in and out (apart from the illegals), not that we can control the numbers.

So full control means no control of numbers? That doesn't sound very 'full' to me...

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Osem

Just got our leaflet - in fact it came in the first second delivery in one day we've had in ages so presumably in certain areas the volume of mail is such that there's a need to put extra staff on the job.

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:21 ----------



So full control means no control of numbers? That doesn't sound very 'full' to me...

Exactly my thinking.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by arcimedes

Full control of our borders means that we know who is coming in and out (apart from the illegals), not that we can control the numbers.

I'm not one of those who believe leaving the EU will stop immigration overnight. Surely though, it must go a long way to kerbing the numbers coming into the UK which incidentally, was UP again this month. They appear to be coming from Southern EU Countries.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

I'm not one of those who believe leaving the EU will stop immigration overnight. Surely though, it must go a long way to kerbing the numbers coming into the UK which incidentally, was UP again this month. They appear to be coming from Southern EU Countries.

Correct, it will not end it overnight but it will take away the legal right of entry from EU member states. Look how many have come from Poland, Romania etc.

Economic refugees from outside the EU and refugees are an entirely different issue.

Britain outside of the EU could refuse entry to any economic or refugee attempting to enter through any EU member state through it's own rules.

Where an asylum seeker travels through several EU countries, the CEAS allows one EU country to send that person to the first EU country reached by the asylum seeker, so long as that country upholds the rights of asylum seekers. This so-called “Dublin system” privileges EU countries in the north, the desired destination of many refugees, at the expense of the south, where most refugees first arrived.

Sourcehttps://www.opensocietyfoundations.o...european-union

If the EU had got their fingers out years ago and enforced the agreement then the chaos in Calais would never have happened and what is happening today in Greece and Turkey would never have reared it's ugly head.

[papa smurf]

REVEALED: 'Buried' Whitehall report that proves EU's control on Britain and migrants

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/661...igrants-Brexit

[Osem]

The above report aside, given what we've actually experienced over the last few decades I can't understand why anyone would believe any assurances issued by the EU or indeed overlook statements made by leading Eurocrats which confirm the reality. We know what the EU is committed to achieving, we know what's in their DNA, we know that even the demonstrable, abject, failure of the Euro, migration, security policy for example, will not stop these people ploughing on regardless towards their single European state. How then can any realistically argue that somehow the UK can be part but not part? Do these people really believe the rules of the game won't be changed by hook or by crook and powers won't continue to be grabbed from us? Whatever else the other pros and cons of membership may be, so far as I am concerned this is the reality and so a vote to stay in the EU is a vote to sooner or later become consumed by the EU. There's no plan B, no other option, no room for compromise, no half way house and their job will never be done because they'll always be someone or something else which needs to be controlled. The Eurocrats only have one vision and that vision doesn't involve us controlling our own destiny, it involves them controlling it along with everything else - they're the giant continental equivalent of your worst vision of what a local authority could be. At a time when the EU's inherent failings have never been more starkly and tragically apparent, right across Europe, how can anyone seriously want to be further bound to it. Is anyone seriously suggesting that we're somehow going to be able to have the best of both worlds while the rest can't? Carry on picking the bits we do and don't want? Look at how little Cameron was able to negotiate whilst waving the biggest stick of all - the threat of us leaving. Concessions from the EU? Common sense? Reform??!! Dream on guys, dream on...

[progers]

You all need to look at https://fullfact.org

[nomadking]

Although the ability for EU citizens can be difficult to cope with by itself, the bigger problem is what they are entitled to once they come over. Our rights to housing, NHS, benefits, etc were created on the basis of a known UK population level. Once you have millions more able to flood in and claim, the system doesn't work. You have the absurd situation where a Czech couple can come over with 22 of their children and grandchildren and all suddenly be eligible for housing, benefits, translators, etc. Bringing no capital with them to contribute, and all not working. When it was smaller numbers from countries like France and Germany and was more of a two way exchange of people, the system could cope. It may be an extreme example, but consider what would happen if the government of North Korea was to collapse. South Korea would be deluged with people.

Any EU directives have to be passed as UK laws, so saying that the EU was responsible for this that and the other is nonsense. The UK is able to pass most of those laws all by itself. Eg the UK started laws on paid holiday leave as far back as 1871.

[Big Brian]

So the debate is now underway proper with 70 days to go. What do you make of Corbyn yesterday? I don't think he really believed what he was saying. It must be hard for a life-long Outer to change his stance? A leopard doesn't change his spots. I actually think he will be an asset to the Brexit Campaign simply because his heart isn't in what he's saying. The bit that got me was the statement "I believe Britain would be better off in a 'reformed EU'." Yes, he said it but the tone of his voice convinced me he didn't believe it. People are switching to Out after his speech according to news interviews afterwards. Someone should tell we ain't gonna get a 'reformed EU'. Thatcher, Blair, Brown and Cameron couldn't do it so why would we believe Corbyn can do it?

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Kursk

Please, everyone, if you don't want the leaflet or any others that might follow, just bin it. Let's not waste the time and effort of others in an attempt to make any kind of political point that will fall on deaf ears.

Posting it back to the Tory freepost address is a perfectly legitimate protest that may get noticed in number. Binning it will not get noticed. Shame I haven't got mine to post back yet. Maybe the RM door to door opt out really has worked !

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Although the ability for EU citizens can be difficult to cope with by itself, the bigger problem is what they are entitled to once they come over. Our rights to housing, NHS, benefits, etc were created on the basis of a known UK population level. Once you have millions more able to flood in and claim, the system doesn't work. You have the absurd situation where a Czech couple can come over with 22 of their children and grandchildren and all suddenly be eligible for housing, benefits, translators, etc. Bringing no capital with them to contribute, and all not working. When it was smaller numbers from countries like France and Germany and was more of a two way exchange of people, the system could cope. It may be an extreme example, but consider what would happen if the government of North Korea was to collapse. South Korea would be deluged with people.

Any EU directives have to be passed as UK laws, so saying that the EU was responsible for this that and the other is nonsense. The UK is able to pass most of those laws all by itself. Eg the UK started laws on paid holiday leave as far back as 1871.

The bigger problem is this: If they live and work in our country then they surely are entitled to the same rights as we are. By Kerbing their Benefits and other things, is Cameron not breaking EU rules by taking some of these 'rights' away from them? We can't have it both ways though it's obvious to me Cameron is trying his best to have his cake and eat it.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

So the debate is now underway proper with 70 days to go. What do you make of Corbyn yesterday? I don't think he really believed what he was saying. It must be hard for a life-long Outer to change his stance? A leopard doesn't change his spots. I actually think he will be an asset to the Brexit Campaign simply because his heart isn't in what he's saying. The bit that got me was the statement "I believe Britain would be better off in a 'reformed EU'." Yes, he said it but the tone of his voice convinced me he didn't believe it. People are switching to Out after his speech according to news interviews afterwards. Someone should tell we ain't gonna get a 'reformed EU'. Thatcher, Blair, Brown and Cameron couldn't do it so why would we believe Corbyn can do it?

Have to agree, he's certainly not pro-Europe, but the majority of his party is, so he's had to toe the line. I think his unenthusiastic tone was deliberate ! He made a point yesterday of not taking back any of the anti-EU comments he's made in the past.

The latest polling, if you believe it, is showing a slight lead for Brexit (45% leave , 42% remain) There's a difference between sexes; Men seem to be in favour of Brexit, and women remaining. There are alot of undecided females though (what's new ). I suspect most of these will vote for no change when it comes to it.
https://gallery.mailchimp.com/fbcf81...s/11_April.pdf