[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Hugh

The defeat in the House of Lords had nothing to do with the SNP...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6838581.html

Was talking about the recent Budget.

Originally Posted by Big Brian

And who was it that defeated the Disability cuts? Labour and the SNP.

Originally Posted by Hugh

The defeat in the House of Lords had nothing to do with the SNP...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6838581.html

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Was talking about the recent Budget.

Which vote was it that Labour and the SNP defeated the Government on?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35877442

Osborne dropped the disability cuts due to the rebellion in his own party, including IDS's resignation, rather than due to anything Labour/SNP did, but happy to be proven wrong, as it might mean there is an active and effective opposition.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Problem is Brian, its the way most Tories think. Spending on the NHS won't be a priority, tax cuts for the rich will ( see George's Fudget as an example of this).

You can keep thinking that but I'm pretty well off and I've seen no tax cuts worth cheering about. Plenty of tax hikes though. I feel like the country is being run by a left wing government, not the conservatives.
HMRC are being allowed to run around acting like bully boys, breaking their own rules, threatening and using underhand tactics to try to extract more tax from the well off.
It's got so bad that I'm going to sell half of my assets to pay off the other half (wiping out my debts/mortgages) so that I can downscale my work/income to just below the higher rate tax level because I feel like I'm running to stand still.
Screw 'em. I'm going to earn less so that I don't have to pay what feels like punitive levels of tax. It's that or sell up and emigrate.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Which vote was it that Labour and the SNP defeated the Government on?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35877442

Osborne dropped the disability cuts due to the rebellion in his own party, including IDS's resignation, rather than due to anything Labour/SNP did, but happy to be proven wrong, as it might mean there is an active and effective opposition.

I didn't say it was a vote. Lavour and the SNP along with Tory rebels made him think again. Labour and SNP spoke up in the Commons saying they would not support him on the cuts hence by making him think again they defeated him.

---------- Post added at 08:13 ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 ----------

Originally Posted by Ramrod

You can keep thinking that but I'm pretty well off and I've seen no tax cuts worth cheering about. Plenty of tax hikes though. I feel like the country is being run by a left wing government, not the conservatives.
HMRC are being allowed to run around acting like bully boys, breaking their own rules, threatening and using underhand tactics to try to extract more tax from the well off.
It's got so bad that I'm going to sell half of my assets to pay off the other half (wiping out my debts/mortgages) so that I can downscale my work/income to just below the higher rate tax level because I feel like I'm running to stand still.
Screw 'em. I'm going to earn less so that I don't have to pay what feels like punitive levels of tax. It's that or sell up and emigrate.

No one can blame you for feeling like that. You are the exception to the rule. It's the top 1% they should be going after and those companies who profit in the UK but pay no, or very little tax.

I personally have nothing against a person who has made themselves by pure hard work and I wish them health to spend their wealth. What angers me is those who inherit and think the world owes them a living - Those born with a silver spoon in their mouth who wouldn't know a hard day's work if it jumped up and bit them on the arse.

However, if this country was run by a proper left-wing Government you would see a much fairer distribution of the country's wealth.

[Kymmy]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

I didn't say it was a vote. Lavour and the SNP along with Tory rebels made him think again. Labour and SNP spoke up in the Commons saying they would not support him on the cuts hence by making him think again they defeated him.

You'll find that his own party's dissent was the only thing to sway his decisions. To suggest that labour or SNP had even a minor role in his reversal is laughable..

Next you'll be suggesting that he'll be consulting corbyn before the next budget??

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Kymmy

You'll find that his own party's dissent was the only thing to sway his decisions. To suggest that labour or SNP had even a minor role in his reversal is laughable..

Next you'll be suggesting that he'll be consulting corbyn before the next budget??

Say what you like. The Budget would have been defeated if he hadn't changed his mind. Not laughable at all it's Politics in action. Personally I wouldn't consult Corbyn if I wanted to cross the road and I need help doing that as I'm severely visually impaired.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

However, if this country was run by a proper left-wing Government you would see a much fairer distribution of the country's wealth.

I presume you meant to use the word 'unfairer'

[Kymmy]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Say what you like. The Budget would have been defeated if he hadn't changed his mind. Not laughable at all it's Politics in action. Personally I wouldn't consult Corbyn if I wanted to cross the road and I need help doing that as I'm severely visually impaired.

You seem to think that the labour party would vote for a conservative budget if it was a good budget Labour will always vote against a conservative purely because it is a conservative budget and vise-versa. It's purely the party with a majority that has power over the budget.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I presume you meant to use the word 'unfairer'

Pretty sure he meant fairer. At the very top and to a lesser extent further down there are a bunch who are largely rentiers drawing far more value from the economy than they create.

The disconnect between high-end CEO compensation and average salaries, one that has grown far wider even in my adult life than before, comes to mind immediately. There are some financial services activities that are not a lot more than skimming the top off of other people's money, with those skimming being paid handsomely, too.

Nothing some unionisation, investors rather than groups on one another's compensation boards adjudicating salaries, a land value tax and some supply-side reforms and liberalisations in a few dysfunctional markets won't fix, alongside the banning of financial chicanery that achieves nothing beyond enriching a few at the expense of many.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Kymmy

You seem to think that the labour party would vote for a conservative budget if it was a good budget Labour will always vote against a conservative purely because it is a conservative budget and vise-versa. It's purely the party with a majority that has power over the budget.

Well they have 8 times. So how come they were passed when they didn't have a big enough majority. I'll put it down to you not being awake yet.

---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 ----------

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I presume you meant to use the word 'unfairer'

No I know exactly what I meant.

[Osem]

I'd like to know what makes those who're certain that we should stay in the EU believe that what's happening across Europe right now is some sort of blip and it'll all work out in the end. It's not as though the EU is booming and everyone's united in a common cause. The absolute reverse is the case with the EU fragmenting to the extent that the financial crisis going on in Greece (and elsewhere) has been forgotten about. Isn't that just about the best possible indication anyone could have that the EU is already broken? After decades of trying to make it work, it's not as though the EU's riding high, an example to the rest of the world, is it? It's not as though they can seriously tell us we're lucky to be the EU's second largest net contributor whilst at the same time selling them less than they sell us.

Of course the IN brigade might be fully aware of how bad the EU's future looks but still believe we'd be better off inside it, in which case I'd ask why?

[heero_yuy]

Both sides seem to forget Ockham's Razor

Don't multiply needless assumptions. Yet that is exactly the raison d'etre of project fear.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Osem

I'd like to know what makes those who're certain that we should stay in the EU believe that what's happening across Europe right now is some sort of blip and it'll all work out in the end. It's not as though the EU is booming and everyone's united in a common cause. The absolute reverse is the case with the EU fragmenting to the extent that the financial crisis going on in Greece (and elsewhere) has been forgotten about. Isn't that just about the best possible indication anyone could have that the EU is already broken? After decades of trying to make it work, it's not as though the EU's riding high, an example to the rest of the world, is it? It's not as though they can seriously tell us we're lucky to be the EU's second largest net contributor whilst at the same time selling them less than they sell us. .

Of course the IN brigade might be fully aware of how bad the EU's future looks but still believe we'd be better off inside it, in which case I'd ask why?

Indeed. I can't for the life of me understand it either. Why stay in something that's crumbling around your ears? What really frightens me about remaining is the terrorists. I know we have our own but I honestly believe that remaining will heighten the risk to the UK. Hell, they couldn't even get that right. They arrest a man sure he's the one they are looking for and it turns out it isn't and the let him go, probably to commit a terrorist act elsewhere. How could they let him go if they found evidence in his flat? The best we could hope for was to charge him with a lesser offence. Apparently, their justice system doesn't work the way ours does. In the UK we would have probably found something to hold him on.

That aside, I think the EU will turn into a bloodbath before too long with all this terrorism. They appear to be leaving the UK alone so why not get out while the getting's good? If we vote to remain, will they then start to attack the UK?

Greece will bring down the EU eventually and probably cause another world economic crash. They can't keep bailing them out.

---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Both sides seem to forget Ockham's Razor

Don't multiply needless assumptions. Yet that is exactly the raison d'etre of project fear.

As there is fear being used on both sides of the fence, I wonder if it comes down to who can promote the most fear as to whether we remain or not?

Originally Posted by Osem

I'd like to know what makes those who're certain that we should stay in the EU believe that what's happening across Europe right now is some sort of blip and it'll all work out in the end.

Well it depends what you mean.

If it's the Eurozone crisis - we're not part of the Eurozone.
If it's the Migration crisis - we're not part of open borders.

These can both still hurt us of course but only in ways that would affect us inside or outside the EU. The one exception would be if migrants becoming EU citizens but I consider that not too big a problem. Whatever happens the EU will still be there and a vote to leave wouldn't stop those problems and won't stop them harming us.

I question the material consequence a vote would have on my life. At the moment I can't see much about my live that would be improved by leaving the EU. However if there is economic uncertainty in the aftermath of leaving then that could hurt me. I work in a service industry and if that takes a hit then it's also bad for me.

A vote to leave doesn't seem to solve anything but could pose new issues. I would rather have the stability.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well it depends what you mean.

If it's the Eurozone crisis - we're not part of the Eurozone.
If it's the Migration crisis - we're not part of open borders.

These can both still hurt us of course but only in ways that would affect us inside or outside the EU. The one exception would be if migrants becoming EU citizens but I consider that not too big a problem. Whatever happens the EU will still be there and a vote to leave wouldn't stop those problems and won't stop them harming us.

I question the material consequence a vote would have on my life. At the moment I can't see much about my live that would be improved by leaving the EU. However if there is economic uncertainty in the aftermath of leaving then that could hurt me. I work in a service industry and if that takes a hit then it's also bad for me.

A vote to leave doesn't seem to solve anything but could pose new issues. I would rather have the stability.

There is economic uncertainty whether we stay or leave. The point of leaving would be that we have control over that uncertainty and can plan accordingly.

I disagree that it would make no difference to migration if we stay or leave. It stands to reason that it will make a big difference for the simple reason that we will no longer be obliged to let someone in just because they have an EU passport. Atm we have to have a damn good reason to refuse them entry.