[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

I'm curious to know, when are you going to realise that the Tory party is a sideshow in this? There is a serious constitutional debate going on here, yet you don't seem to be able to rise above the Punch and Judy show that is regular British politics.

Don't you think it's about time you engaged in the actual debate?

[Mr K]

OK then. The NHS would be under threat with Brexit,
Jeremy Hunt says so, so it must be true....
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...at-from-brexit

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Mr K

OK then. The NHS would be under threat with Brexit,
Jeremy Hunt says so, so it must be true....
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...at-from-brexit

Everything is under threat according to them if we leave the EU. The trick is sorting the lies from the truth. The NHS would surely benefit from more money with what we'll save by not being in the EU.

Other things are being banded around by the In Campaign that are frightening to those not in the know. Take the terrorist threat for example. They claim it would be raised if we leave. I disagree with this as some of these terrorists actually hold EU passports. We would tighten our border controls, however, it has emerged that Labour have accused the Tories of cutting back on border control to save money. How convenient when there is a referendum on EU membership in the offing. Surely if the threat is as bad as they claim, it will be better to spend more money on border control?

This is obvious scaremongering to force a remain vote. See todays news.

[Osem]

The NHS will benefit by not being put under so much strain by ever increasing and unstoppable numbers of EU migrants (for the purposes of this debate) and those who choose to pop over the channel to get some free healthcare. The NHS is being bled dry and if we want to preserve anything like it we have to, amongst many other things, be able to control who accesses it.

When it comes to scaremongering, yes it is happening on both sides but the IN group are taking it to a new level. They'll be telling us we won't have enough air if we leave next.

Questions about the NHS would be: How much demand is placed by EU citizens? How much in taxes to they contribute? How many work in the NHS? God knows how we work all that out.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Damien

Questions about the NHS would be: How much demand is placed by EU citizens? How much in taxes to they contribute? How many work in the NHS? God knows how we work all that out.

I'm sure no one is advocating kicking the ones out who are already here. I see the point though but the solution is easy. Anyone coming into this country for medical care (NHS Tourists) should pay for it. By definition the NHS should be free at the point of access for UK Citizens, not all and sundry.

As to Immigration: I favour the Australian style where you have to have work or someone has to claim you. In the case of the latter, they have to prove they can support you.

As to Trade: I don't believe copying another system is the way to go. Try to cherry-pick the best bits from them all and negotiate that.

As to Jobs: I don't believe for one second that 3 million jobs will just go. There will be at least a 2 year negotiation period for negotiating with the EU and it will probably take about 10 years to break from it completely.

As to Security: There is no way in hell that leaving the EU will either raise or diminish the threat of a terrorist attack. They are here already and can strike whenever they like. How would leaving the EU raise the threat?

As to the Economy: How will leaving the EU diminish the Economy when it will benefit to the tune of £375 bn. per year with the savings we make?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

Questions about the NHS would be: How much demand is placed by EU citizens? How much in taxes to they contribute? How many work in the NHS? God knows how we work all that out.

It's not just a question of who contributes what in the long term though, it's the very massive and rapid population growth which is largely a result of EU migration which causes so many problems. It's all very well people having the freedom to move from one country to another but surely we have to take notice of the extra demands being placed on the NHS and as we all know it takes time to train doctors, build facilities, provide services etc. etc. etc. As it stands, we're forever trying to play catch up and frankly getting further and further behind every year. We can all see in various EU countries what inevitably happens when large numbers of people start arriving and placing demands on services etc. in an uncontrolled manner. Well that's what the EU's obsession with free movement leads to and although the naïve 'welcomes' and smokescreen of denial have long gone, the Eurocrats still don't accept that free movement is a problem.

I've always had a issue with the notion that the answer to our problems is more migration. It may well be a relatively short term benefit in some ways but if ever there was an ultimately self defeating policy that would be it. If we're taking a long term view, about what's sustainable, which we should be, we need to control population growth not the opposite because even young, fit migrants get old. If we had a system in which people had the right to work for a certain period of time and then go home that would be one thing but there's absolutely nothing to stop millions of people deciding they want to come to the UK not to work but to start new lives, have children etc. and never leave. In what way does that make sense when there are so many relatively poor countries in the EU with populations who, for the most part, could never dream of the incomes and services they can expect here? If it were a relatively even playing field across the EU it wouldn't be so bad but when certain countries become the target of huge migration we've seen what problems inevitably follow.

The flip side of the coin, in places like Greece is:

Greece is in the midst of the worst brain drain in modern history, experts say.

“This is unprecedented in terms of the numbers of educated people that are leaving,” said Lois Labrianidis, a professor of economic geography at the University of Macedonia in Thessaloniki.

The country is hemorrhaging talent, as professionals in medicine, engineering and academics flee for a better economic climate and more stable employment. The pain has been particularly severe in the health care sector of Greece: Many of the country’s doctors have left or are making plans to do so.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/01/wo...oves.html?_r=0

Yes, it's true they could go elsewhere regardless of free movement within the EU too, but many are choosing to remain in the EU, mainly Germany.

Free movement is, IMHO, a disaster and one of the main reasons why we need to get out of the EU.

Originally Posted by Damien

Questions about the NHS would be: How much demand is placed by EU citizens? How much in taxes to they contribute? How many work in the NHS? God knows how we work all that out.

https://fullfact.org/health/health-t...-and-who-pays/

We can split the estimated costs into two categories:

Normal use: The estimated cost of normal use of the NHS—by foreign visitors who've ended up being treated while in England—is £1.8 billion a year (including a small number of European visitors treated in the rest of the UK). This includes the cost of treating them in A&E, though visitors aren't currently charged for this, and the cost of treating some foreigners resident in England who currently don't incur charges.

Only around £500 million per year is estimated to be recoverable or chargeable according to the Department for Health. In reality only £100 million was recovered in 2013/14.

Deliberate use: This is the estimated cost of treating those travelling to England deliberately for free treatment, or those who take advantage of the health system while here (which means using it more intensively than they might have done otherwise). This group is particularly difficult to quantify as we don't really know who most of them are. It's thought they could cost the NHS somewhere between £110 million and £280 million a year, on top of the £1.8 billion a year.

[tweedle]

The NHS is safe, because you me and 70million others in Britain won't let it be killed off. Just like PiP , Tax credits, ect ect we won't allow it.

[Mr K]

Although I'm not an 'Outer' , I don't for a moment believe Jeremy Hunt on anything. He's obviously on the 'Project Fear' rota this weekend, whilst Cameron's roughing it in Lanzagrotty. I think the In campaign need to be careful they don't use the most unpopular politicians to make the case (not that I can think of anyone that's popular !).
3 more months of lies back and fore - the public ain't listening or believing either side anymore.

[Big Brian]

EU exit 'would banish UK austerity', says John Redwood

The UK could end austerity if it left the EU by reinvesting the money spent on contributions in the economy and the NHS, Tory MP John Redwoood has said.

Mr Redwood, from pro-exit Conservatives for Britain, said the UK would be able to guarantee the current EU funding farmers and universities receive.

It would have £10bn left to spend on new nurses and doctors and to cut "unfair EU taxes" he said, as he set out what a post-exit first Budget could look like.

Full Story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35873996

On a lighter note I'm reminded of the Conservative Leadership Election when John Major, I think it was, gave up. The headline read:

Redwood & Deadwood.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

EU exit 'would banish UK austerity', says John Redwood

The UK could end austerity if it left the EU by reinvesting the money spent on contributions in the economy and the NHS, Tory MP John Redwoood has said.

Mr Redwood, from pro-exit Conservatives for Britain, said the UK would be able to guarantee the current EU funding farmers and universities receive.

It would have £10bn left to spend on new nurses and doctors and to cut "unfair EU taxes" he said, as he set out what a post-exit first Budget could look like.

Full Story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35873996

On a lighter note I'm reminded of the Conservative Leadership Election when John Major, I think it was, gave up. The headline read:

Redwood & Deadwood.

Equally as much cobblers as Hunts NHS scare. Tit for tat, lie for lie.
Redwood would be wanting tax cuts for himself if there was any money going anyway. He wouldn't spend it on the NHS as he doesn't use it.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Equally as much cobblers as Hunts NHS scare. Tit for tat, lie for lie.
Redwood would be wanting tax cuts for himself if there was any money going anyway. He wouldn't spend it on the NHS as he doesn't use it.

Garbage of the first order. He'd have no choice. One man doesn't make a Party.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Garbage of the first order. He'd have no choice. One man doesn't make a Party.

Problem is Brian, its the way most Tories think. Spending on the NHS won't be a priority, tax cuts for the rich will ( see George's Fudget as an example of this).

[tweedle]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Equally as much cobblers as Hunts NHS scare. Tit for tat, lie for lie.
Redwood would be wanting tax cuts for himself if there was any money going anyway. He wouldn't spend it on the NHS as he doesn't use it.

Wow what a load of absolute crap, one man does not demand tax cuts instead of NHS spending. I was starting to give some of your posts a consideration, the above comment shows how you may not fully understand what you are commenting on.

---------- Post added at 17:43 ---------- Previous post was at 17:40 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

Problem is Brian.

There is no problem, but as a leftie you believe the common man cannot be trusted with important decisions and must be told what to do. Go back to 1970 you'll be happy there.