Ireland votes on Gay Marriage

[Kymmy]

Originally Posted by Hugh

But we rarely see that happening, either....

Even then it tends to be the women stoned... But that's a whole other thread..

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Russ

As long as establishments are permitted to choose who can marry on their premises this is a positive thing.

How is 'legalised' abomination a positive thing?

[Russ]

Freedom of choice.

[Kursk]

I wouldn't have thought that condoning it was a choice?

[Russ]

Nobody is telling you to not condone it.

[Kursk]

I could have sworn I read it in a book.

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by Russ

We never will achieve true equality purely because humans aren't truly equal. There are some things that certain people are better adapted to do, have different views about, different experiences etc. And I don't mean in terms of superiority/inferiority either, some differences ought to be celebrated. But the more we have equality forced on us the worse things can get.

I'm sure you didn't mean this how I am reading it but I strongly disagree with pretty much all of it.

Firstly in this case of course this wasn't "forced equality" at all because it was brought via a democratic vote, and the only thing it forces is to allow more people to enjoy the same rights as many have for generations. Nobody has lost anything thanks to this vote.

Secondly, I've seen variations on this argument before when it comes to affirmitive action schemes and similar. On the face of it, such schemes are unfair but when a system is skewed towards (usually the dominant majority) any party, you must actually tip the scales at least for a period of time to make up for this.

A good example is our house of commons. Yes, now there are no barriers to women or minorities, which is fantastic but still we have under-representation of both. It can be legitimately argued that all women or minority shortlists as used by Labour initially and now all major parties is discriminatory, however without such actions it would take far too long to make a significant impact, just as we saw with the Tories lagging behind when it came to numbers of women MPs.

Yes, I agree that we should embrace and celebrate diversity, but we should never accept or allow systems that discriminate for things that people have no control over.

Originally Posted by Kursk

How is 'legalised' abomination a positive thing?

If I said that I think that organised religion was the root cause of many of the evils committed in the world, and thus it should be banned, I'm sure you would rightly say that you have the right to believe without restriction or prejudice.

Well, the same applies here. If you do not agree with homosexuality based on your beliefs, fine, but freedom of expression means that you have to accept that other people do not agree with you and it should not be your right, nor the states to restrict others rights based upon this. As this vote has shown, the majority of people want marriage to not discriminate based on sexuality.

The thing is, I bet many of those who voted yes may not even agree with homosexuality themselves, but realise that they should not judge others based on their own moral compass. Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven.

[Russ]

By 'forced' I mean laws and rules brought in to enforce equality. Yep the PC approach is to celebrate that but equality needs to be a natural feeling and opinion, not one of "view this person as equal or you'll go to jail". Education, not enforcement is preferable.

I know about inequality only too well. Try being male or a father in a family court.

---------- Post added at 08:43 ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 ----------

Taken from a Sheffield family court on 16/3/15: "you must realise it's difficult for a mother to be taken from her child".

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by Russ

By 'forced' I mean laws and rules brought in to enforce equality. Yep the PC approach is to celebrate that but equality needs to be a natural feeling and opinion, not one of "view this person as equal or you'll go to jail". Education, not enforcement is preferable.

I know about inequality only too well. Try being male or a father in a family court.

---------- Post added at 08:43 ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 ----------

Taken from a Sheffield family court on 16/3/15: "you must realise it's difficult for a mother to be taken from her child".

In an ideal world, I'd agree, but we do not live in one.

People suck, if education was the only problem we would not live in a society that needed equal rights legislation. The fact is that the education system has been used as a tool to propagate intolerance and inequality. Remember at various times in history slavery was justified because people were taught that black people were inferior, almost sub human so it didn't matter how they were treated.

Humanity, as a species are a highly competitive race and one-upmanship is almost a default. As such we are prone to making stuff up to help make that process easier. Being left to our own devices and hoping that telling people to be nice will stop that from happening is naive. Yes, education can help but you need the law as a backup.

After all, we tell people that rape and murder is wrong too, but education doesn't work 100% of the time either, hence the "do not murder someone or you will go to jail". There must be the threat of sanction otherwise why would anyone bother doing the right thing if it doesn't benefit them.

Finally I totally agree with family courts being biased and this needs to be fixed. Custody cases should be decided on what's best for the child, not defaulting to either parent.

Originally Posted by Kursk

How is 'legalised' abomination a positive thing?

Was that a serious question, or are you indulging in satire?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Stop It

In an ideal world, I'd agree, but we do not live in one.

People suck, if education was the only problem we would not live in a society that needed equal rights legislation. The fact is that the education system has been used as a tool to propagate intolerance and inequality. Remember at various times in history slavery was justified because people were taught that black people were inferior, almost sub human so it didn't matter how they were treated.

Humanity, as a species are a highly competitive race and one-upmanship is almost a default. As such we are prone to making stuff up to help make that process easier. Being left to our own devices and hoping that telling people to be nice will stop that from happening is naive. Yes, education can help but you need the law as a backup.

After all, we tell people that rape and murder is wrong too, but education doesn't work 100% of the time either, hence the "do not murder someone or you will go to jail". There must be the threat of sanction otherwise why would anyone bother doing the right thing if it doesn't benefit them.

Finally I totally agree with family courts being biased and this needs to be fixed. Custody cases should be decided on what's best for the child, not defaulting to either parent.

Just because we don't live in an ideal world doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for one.

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by Russ

Just because we don't live in an ideal world doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for one.

I totally agree. However as this vote has shown, I don't think we (as a society, not me and you, just for clarity) will ever agree on what that is, let alone how to get there.

[Russ]

Be that as it may, forcing people to accept something may well deal with an issue in the short term but won't make it go away.

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by Russ

Be that as it may, forcing people to accept something may well deal with an issue in the short term but won't make it go away.

Hoping the issue will go away by itself is far worse in my view. There are many things people may not like but have to do anyway.

We could hope that people take heed of their driving lessons and not drive irresponsibly but even with the law as a deterrent, people still speed, drink drive and otherwise endanger others.

In this case, the majority of people voting are not directly affected by this law. People can still get married as normal, just now more people have that right. Yes, some people may not like it, but hey, they still have the right to complain about it!

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Kursk

How is 'legalised' abomination a positive thing?

congratulations on making me spit my tea out.