General Election 2015: Voting intentions & general discussion

[Ignitionnet]

It shows how far and how violently Thatcher dragged the country to the right that Tories and Tory favouring press are trying to paint Labour as being socialist and hugely left-wing.

They aren't. They're slightly less right-wing than the Tories.

The property market needs some controlling. It's completely dysfunctional and a whole bunch of wealth that should be creating growth is instead tied up in property and whole bunch of income that should be purchasing goods and services, creating jobs and making many people richer is paying off huge mortgages or high rents.

The level of spending and state intervention between the two parties is not wide enough for one side to be seen as socialist and the other not IMO. The Tories want to freeze rail fares and spent an extra £8 billion on the NHS for example. Labour have put deficit reduction as one of their key pledges. Both of them are ruling out as many tax raises as they can get away with. Hell, even the SNP are talking of rather modest spending increases. Only the Green Party seem to have dramatically different policies that could be seen as moving towards as socialist country.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 ----------

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

It shows how far and how violently Thatcher dragged the country to the right that Tories and Tory favouring press are trying to paint Labour as being socialist and hugely left-wing.

They aren't. They're slightly less right-wing than the Tories..

Or what he said ^.

But yes. It seems more about slogans and artificial lines of division rather than any substantive policy that causes people who have mildly differencing views to perceive an ocean between them.

[Ignitionnet]

This isn't too far off I don't think.



EDIT: While it seems odd to compare UK parties to the US ones as we have always thought of them as being far more right-wing in some policy respects now the largest difference is the level of corporatism involved - we aren't yet as corporatist as they are but are working on it.

EDIT 2: That lower-right quadrant shouldn't be empty. That quadrant should be where at very least the Liberal Democrats are, if not also the Conservatives. Small 'l' liberalism is in extremely short supply right now unless accompanied by somewhat insane economics

[denphone]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

If he isn't can we gloat?

Whoever wins l don't think we should gloat as this country is still in a pretty bad mess in my opinion but there again what do l know.

[Osem]

Labour want us to believe their supposed crack down on migrants claiming benefits will save loads of money. By this they mean jobseekers allowance, child benefit and child tax credit but they have nothing to say about the various in work benefits they'd still be entitled to. It's as if they don't exist...

Labour's spokesman David Hanson MP has just been on Daily Politics refusing repeatedly to answer a simple question - will EU workers be able to claim "in work" benefits under their new scheme. I wonder why? It appears they have no intention of doing anything about them but don't really want the public to know that, preferring to propagate the notion that they'll control migrant benefits per se.

Given their pledge to prosecute employers failing to pay the minimum wage, he was equally evasive in refusing to comment on enforcement under his party's oversight. Possibly this is because between 1998-2007 there were zero prosecutions and from 2007 - 2010 there were only 7.

It was then put to him that his party are now claiming that exit controls are essential in controlling immigration when it was Labour who abolished them in 1998 (something Hanson denied), and a Labour minister who claimed in 2002 that "they did not contribute to the overall effectiveness of immigration controls". He didn't want to comment on what Labour did in the past evidently. Didn't think their track record ought to be open to scrutiny...

Now if that were a Tory party record, the usual suspects would be here baying for blood, screaming that the nasty party were at it again - looking after their rich mates, protecting greedy exploitative employers, hurting the poor and the vulnerable blah, blah, blah. What's Labour's excuse then?

Andrew Neil summed it all up perfectly, commenting that everything they seem to be suggesting now flies in the face of what they actually did when they were in power. Dead right I reckon!

The relevant section is at c. 31 mins. into the show which is available here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...itics-28042015

[Ignitionnet]

I think we've established that Labour are far from perfect. Anything to promote voting Tory instead of Labour or just ongoing attack-bot action?

EDIT: Incidentally I can't stand the PLP - if I were to vote Labour it'd be based purely on local factors and I would be voting for the MP, not his party.

Your posts and signature are actually a microcosm of this entire campaign, buzzwords and attacks. Most policies offered by those two parties don't stand up to any kind of scrutiny and seem like they were written on the back of a fag packet that morning.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

This isn't too far off I don't think.



EDIT: While it seems odd to compare UK parties to the US ones as we have always thought of them as being far more right-wing in some policy respects now the largest difference is the level of corporatism involved - we aren't yet as corporatist as they are but are working on it.

EDIT 2: That lower-right quadrant shouldn't be empty. That quadrant should be where at very least the Liberal Democrats are, if not also the Conservatives. Small 'l' liberalism is in extremely short supply right now unless accompanied by somewhat insane economics

I disagree with that spectrum a bit. It's hard to graphically quantify how authoritarian or left/right a party is really.

For example I don't think the Conservatives are to the right of UKIP or are less authoritarian. I would put LibDems as closer to libertarianism than the SNP too. Although you did say 'mostly' and I can't see any outrageous classifications there.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I think we've established that Labour are far from perfect.

That's an understatement.....

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

That's an understatement.....

Now we just need the usual suspects to see the light and our work here is done...

[ianch99]

Labour and the Conservatives are not too far apart at the end of the day. Blair just re-badged Thatcher's policies with a slight socialist tinge. He did this to get into to power. He didn't want to make society a better place for our children (or whatever politicians are really supposed to go into politics for), his goal was power, just power. Same as Dave ..

Labour will not make the fundamental changes that are needed, mores the pity.

No one will address the main issues we face today:

- The ever widening wealth gap

- The ability of corporations to exploit their customers and employees, paying minimum tax in order to "deliver their legal duty to their shareholders".

- The power of the City to blackmail the country: the power and influence of "big business" and the Financial Services sector is so large now that it may no longer be controllable.

-the crumbling NHS*

- the runaway, uncontrolled property market esp. in London where, you have foreign and City money forcing Londoners to leave their communities where their families have lived for generations as they no longer can afford the house prices.

- the rapidly reducing ability of our children affording their own properties

- the skewing of the labour market towards a postition where all the power is in the hands of the employer and very little left for the employee. This leads to exploitation: in the past you may have had vocational opportunities where you were offered a reasonably paid job for 6 months, a year with a prospect of a longer term position at the end. Now you are offered minimum wage (if you are lucky) "internships" with no job prospects at the end. The employer just gets a stream of cheap labour with no obligations on their part

- the promotion of the "Greed is Good" philosophy and the illusion of the "Morality of the Market"

- etc. etc.

Neither Labour or the Tories will really address these issues. They all have vested interests they need to appease first.

It is really very, very depressing


* as a footnote, I spend a number of weeks recently visiting my mother-in-law in hospital and later a hospice. She sadly passed away but while she was in the care of the NHS, I was able to get some insight into the pressures it is under. For example, on one weekend, the entire hospital had 2 doctors on duty. All the staff without exception, including the ones from the EU who I assume would be not welcome if UKIP had their way, were wonderful but so, so over worked. I looked at these Nurses and thought: there are people who say that the workers in the City deserve their salaries of £100,000's and bonuses of £millions. I would say put them alongside these Nurses doing their jobs and then ask the question again.

[Ignitionnet]

Poor GDP figure: Bloomberg, Guardian, Mail.

Interesting how differently the same thing can be presented. Guardianistas get the idea that the UK is doomed, Bloomberg are impassive and think it's a blip, the Heil somewhat paranoid too.

---------- Post added at 15:07 ---------- Previous post was at 14:57 ----------

This is pretty epic.

[denphone]

And whoever wins the election many households can expect lower incomes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32498082

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Chris

If you copy and paste text from the Wail, it adds the link and the FB and Twitter details automatically.

and they send you a fiver its important to mention the fiver .

[Ignitionnet]

I'm voting locally as I mentioned, for the man not his party. If not for that I'd likely vote as I have previously and go Liberal Democrat.

They are going to pay the price for coalition but have a lot of policies I agree with, especially social ones, and their fiscal ones are largely responsible without being too savage.

They've lost a lot of their more ideological support, hopefully they'll make it up from more pragmatic support in time.

I can't abide their views on the EU but you can't have it all...

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

and they send you a fiver its important to mention the fiver .

Wow, you must be rich by now