David Cameron -hold your head in shame

Originally Posted by martyh

Wow ,that's a statement and a half ,one that goes against what leading economists,the figures themselves and Blair himself has said .Blair ,upon his election, decided to continue with Thatcherite policies and continued to have a stable economy similar to the one he inherited from the conservatives untill he decided to go his way and announced a massive increase in public spending ,buried us deeper into Europe and abandoned Thatchers policies in the run up to the 2001 election .After he did that it all went wrong .

the second part is correct though whether you believe the first or not

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

the second part is correct though whether you believe the first or not

The first part is not a case of me believing it ,it is historical fact .

The second part is largely true ,with the conservatives i remember it was the 'sleaze' aspect of their latter days in office with labour it was economic mismanagement that bit them up the jacksey,it is unfair to blame the worldwide crisis on them but being unable to withstand the crisis better and not needing such stringent austerity measures than we have is purely down to them.
One thing that does stand out about labour is their ineptitude in economic management and one thing that does stand out about conservatives is their ability to control and manage an economy, we do need a middle ground ,that much i agree on or the swings and roundabouts will continue

[Osem]

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

Tony Blair did not exactly inherit a booming economy from Major did he this economy has been boom and bust in repeated patterns over and over again

you do all of course realise that a party loses an election because something is going wrong so both parties are equally unable to develop a working system

But I thought Brown had sorted out the boom and bust thing? Mr Prudence told us that again and again didn't he?

Bliar and Brown inherited an economy in far better shape than this one was in 2010 and they didn't have to contend with the EU imploding too and having to help bail out other countries. It really isn't difficult to spend money, even money you don't have. It's popular amongst swathes of the electorate too. Couple spend, spend, spend with lies and spin and you have a recipe for a long stay in govt. and, as a bonus, a massive problem for the next incumbents to deal with. Buy now, pay tomorrow... We can and should argue about the rights and wrongs of specific policies and how far austerity measures should be taken but I admire this govt. for at least acknowledging what needs to be done and trying to deal with it by taking tough decisions which are unpopular. If Blair, or Miliband for that matter, was at the helm now they'd be lying through their teeth to win the next election, promising all sorts of goodies and delaying the inevitable pain just to get re-elected. They'd be whiter than white, have no plans to raises taxes, no intention of introducing tuition fees and every intention of spending more on the NHS, schools, welfare blah, blah blah. There'd be no losers except the rich, the bankers and the toffs who'd be made to squeal.* In opposition now, all you get from the architects of this present mess is denial of their huge failures, silence about their plans (if they have have any) and a pretence that somehow there'll be no pain for 'ordinary people' if/when they get back in power. After all the lies and spin, the fact that some people are still naive and/or desperate enough to believe this BS is quite staggering. One the one hand they can't bring themselves to accept what went wrong during 13 years of a secure Labour majority in parliament but on the other are quite happy to jump on the failure of the ConDems to sort it all out pain free after 3 years of shakey coalition and massive turmoil in Europe and the US which, as little as 5 years ago was unthinkable.




*Odd how the rich gort richer and the poor poorer under Labour but don't worry about that mere detail... lol

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by martyh

The first part is not a case of me believing it ,it is historical fact .

The second part is largely true ,with the conservatives i remember it was the 'sleaze' aspect of their latter days in office with labour it was economic mismanagement that bit them up the jacksey,it is unfair to blame the worldwide crisis on them but being unable to withstand the crisis better and not needing such stringent austerity measures than we have is purely down to them.
One thing that does stand out about labour is their ineptitude in economic management and one thing that does stand out about conservatives is their ability to control and manage an economy, we do need a middle ground ,that much i agree on or the swings and roundabouts will continue

It's not entirely unfair to blame them, and in particular Gordon Brown. In the mid 1990s he did sign up to changes in the banking system that allowed the kind of abuses that contributed to the current recession.

Originally Posted by Osem

But I thought Brown had sorted out the boom and bust thing? Mr Prudence told us that again and again didn't he?

Bliar and Brown inherited an economy in far better shape than this one was in 2010 and they didn't have to contend with the EU imploding too and having to help bail out other countries. It really isn't difficult to spend money, even money you don't have. It's popular amongst swathes of the electorate too. Couple spend, spend, spend with lies and spin and you have a recipe for a long stay in govt. and, as a bonus, a massive problem for the next incumbents to deal with. Buy now, pay tomorrow... We can and should argue about the rights and wrongs of specific policies and how far austerity measures should be taken but I admire this govt. for at least acknowledging what needs to be done and trying to deal with it by taking tough decisions which are unpopular. If Blair, or Miliband for that matter, was at the helm now they'd be lying through their teeth to win the next election, promising all sorts of goodies and delaying the inevitable pain just to get re-elected. They'd be whiter than white, have no plans to raises taxes, no intention of introducing tuition fees and every intention of spending more on the NHS, schools, welfare blah, blah blah. There'd be no losers except the rich, the bankers and the toffs who'd be made to squeal.* In opposition now, all you get from the architects of this present mess is denial of their huge failures, silence about their plans (if they have have any) and a pretence that somehow there'll be no pain for 'ordinary people' if/when they get back in power. After all the lies and spin, the fact that some people are still naive and/or desperate enough to believe this BS is quite staggering. One the one hand they can't bring themselves to accept what went wrong during 13 years of a secure Labour majority in parliament but on the other are quite happy to jump on the failure of the ConDems to sort it all out pain free after 3 years of shakey coalition and massive turmoil in Europe and the US which, as little as 5 years ago was unthinkable.




*Odd how the rich gort richer and the poor poorer under Labour but don't worry about that mere detail... lol

I am no fan of Labour either. We have no left and right like we did in Thatcher/ Foot/Kinnock's day its all just a blur now

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

I am no fan of Labour either. We have no left and right like we did in Thatcher/ Foot/Kinnock's day its all just a blur now

That would be down to Blair and his New Labour 'third way' policies which seem to me to be a mix of conservative and labour doctrines ,sounds great on paper but doesn't appear to work in reality.It was a great political experiment at the expense of the UK voters

Originally Posted by martyh

That would be down to Blair and his New Labour 'third way' policies which seem to me to be a mix of conservative and labour doctrines ,sounds great on paper but doesn't appear to work in reality.It was a great political experiment at the expense of the UK voters

I was saying almost the same thing yesterday

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

I was saying almost the same thing yesterday

To me it is absolute proof that finding the middle way in politics is very hard if not impossible in reality .I liken it to Communism which on paper is the perfect solution ,everybody equal ,no class system and everything for the people ,and we all know how that turned out don't we

Originally Posted by martyh

To me it is absolute proof that finding the middle way in politics is very hard if not impossible in reality .I liken it to Communism which on paper is the perfect solution ,everybody equal ,no class system and everything for the people ,and we all know how that turned out don't we

but capitalism is not turning out much better. Greed and the acquisition of material wealth above all other

[Arthurgray50@blu]

I think that a major problem is that have members thought about this.

The coalition are hitting there vulnerable, the poor and the working person,
YET, the banking system are getting away with murder and don't give a damn about the customer.
They wont apply the Mansion Tax, yet want to hit us with the Bedroom Tax - why, the rich members of businesses donate to the Tory Party.

Recently, Cameron and Osborne were seen having a major party which we paid for in our taxes, if that was one of us, we would get slated.

And today l was watching a programme where an elderly lady was hit by high bills and no one would help until the great Red Cross got involved.

We all know where the Coalition policies lay, and that's not with the working person.

Coming up soon you will have them taking away the Tv Licence for the elderly, free travel for the elderly and yet they will still send billions to overseas countries.

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

but capitalism is not turning out much better. Greed and the acquisition of material wealth above all other

At least with capitalism everybody has the opportunity for the acquisition of wealth .Socialism is about removing that wealth from individuals that have it and giving it to the ones that don't .Capitalism should(given the right circumstances of course) give people the opportunity to earn that wealth for themselves.

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

I think that a major problem is that have members thought about this.

The coalition are hitting there vulnerable, the poor and the working person,
YET, the banking system are getting away with murder and don't give a damn about the customer.
They wont apply the Mansion Tax, yet want to hit us with the Bedroom Tax - why, the rich members of businesses donate to the Tory Party.

Recently, Cameron and Osborne were seen having a major party which we paid for in our taxes, if that was one of us, we would get slated.

And today l was watching a programme where an elderly lady was hit by high bills and no one would help until the great Red Cross got involved.

We all know where the Coalition policies lay, and that's not with the working person.

Coming up soon you will have them taking away the Tv Licence for the elderly, free travel for the elderly and yet they will still send billions to overseas countries.

I remember a few years ago our local council were found to have spent £110 on toilet seats in the council house.

You imagine how much money it costs to maintain the houses of parliament I bet you will find no austerity there

---------- Post added at 11:53 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

At least with capitalism everybody has the opportunity for the acquisition of wealth .Socialism is about removing that wealth from individuals that have it and giving it to the ones that don't .Capitalism should(given the right circumstances of course) give people the opportunity to earn that wealth for themselves.

But money and wealth are artificial we only need them to live on because are culture dictates it.

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

But money and wealth are artificial we only need them to live on because are culture dictates it.

Nevertheless we need it because that is how society works and has worked for thousands of years ,back to the times of swapping a donkey for a bushel of wheat .In a few thousand years we may achieve the "Star Trek" utopia where money is redundant but in the hear and now we need it

Originally Posted by martyh

Nevertheless we need it because that is how society works and has worked for thousands of years ,back to the times of swapping a donkey for a bushel of wheat .In a few thousand years we may achieve the "Star Trek" utopia where money is redundant but in the hear and now we need it

but you are happy for those in need to lose some of what they need

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

but you are happy for those in need to lose some of what they need

Depends on who you mean by "in need" .Many of those in need are ,if examined closely ,aren't as in need as you think