David Cameron -hold your head in shame

[Osem]

He is on ignore which I why I haven't addressed him, my point was directed at another poster if you care to look again.

I have no problem with people criticising this lot for what they've done but doing that whilst totally ignoring the reasons why much of it is being done and what went on before is absurd and undermines any valid point trying to be made, if indeed there is one and it's not just another incoherent one-sided rant.

Do you realise why Labour are being so quiet about their policies and failures? Has it occurred to you that there's going to be more of the same under them or do you think they have another magic spell to make it all go the same way as the cycle of boom and bust? The mess we're now in is going to hurt people here in just the same way as it's hurting people in most of Europe and for years to come. Anyone who's in denial about that needs to wake up and smell the coffee. It really is no good coming here and ranting on endlessly then sticking your fingers in your ears when people point out the bias, contradictions and hypocrisy in what you've posted.

Post away about the failures of this govt. but at least do so coherently and have the common sense to question the alternatives on offer, that way we can have the forum you claim to want - one in which sensible discussion of FACTS can be engaged in. Who knows, if we all do that we may wind up with better government to boot. Now wouldn't that be nice.

ultimately the economic state of this country and the lack of industry dates back to the privatisation under Thatcher who was yes you got it Tory

[peanut]

Originally Posted by Osem

He is on ignore which I why I haven't addressed him, my point was directed at another poster if you care to look again.

I have no problem with people criticising this lot for what they've done but doing that whilst totally ignoring the reasons why much of it is being done and what went on before is absurd and undermines any valid point trying to be made, if indeed there is one and it's not just another incoherent one-sided rant.

Do you realise why Labour are being so quiet about their policies and failures? Has it occurred to you that there's going to be more of the same under them or do you think they have another magic spell to make it all go the same way as the cycle of boom and bust? The mess we're now in is going to hurt people here in just the same way as it's hurting people in most of Europe and for years to come. Anyone who's in denial about that needs to wake up and smell the coffee. It really is no good coming here and ranting on endlessly then sticking your fingers in your ears when people point out the bias, contradictions and hypocrisy in what you've posted.

Post away about the failures of this govt. but at least do so coherently and have the common sense to question the alternatives on offer, that way we can have the forum you claim to want - one in which sensible discussion of FACTS can be engaged in. Who knows, if we all do that we may wind up with better government to boot. Now wouldn't that be nice.

It would be nice, but there's no need to point anything at me (not sure why you have). Firstly, I don't really care much about politics but for your arguments sake, 'yes I do' to the bolds above. Secondly you've missed the point of my post.

This is a cable forum, not a the Tory party appreciation society, I can hold my hands up and say I know nothing about politics, Europe, whatever as I have too much on my plate to even bother to spend time trying to understand anything about these subjects but I do have the common sense to know what is going on. And I'm sure a lot of people here are the same. But it doesn't or shouldn't stop people from posting their 'rants' as you call them if they are valid and which are affecting people (myself included) right now.

Of course I'm very interested in what is happening right now, how things are affecting people right now, and it is good to discuss these things and also in terms for those that aren't political experts, but this place seems just against anything bad against the Tories and it's always the same, eg blame the last govt etc.

Arthurs posts are sometimes annoying, one sided etc but he is voicing what a lot of people will not say here especially on this forum because of how harsh this place can be. So for one I welcome his posts.

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

ultimately the economic state of this country and the lack of industry dates back to the privatisation under Thatcher who was yes you got it Tory

Which in turn goes back to Callaghan,Wilson allowing unions to run the country.Those same unions didn't allow investment in car plants ,dockyards,steel works and pits turning them into state run money pits and those PM's where ,yes, you got it ,Labour.

Because of our history we have ended up with 2 mainstream political parties

Labour= state dominance ,state control

Conservative = self sufficiency ,private enterprise ,less state dominance

It doesn't take a genius to work out that those 2 ideologies are not compatible so we will continue on the merry go round that is politics in the UK .If labour win the next election state dependance will rise ,we will have more and more of the population dependent on the state .If conservative win we will see a continuation of self sufficiency ,less state dependency ,it's that choice you are making when you tick the box

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

ultimately the economic state of this country and the lack of industry dates back to the privatisation under Thatcher who was yes you got it Tory

Whaayy Heyyy,

I was waiting for when Maggie would cop for it.

Yes, it's Thatchers fault, 'course it is..........................

Originally Posted by peanut

It would be nice, but there's no need to point anything at me (not sure why you have). Firstly, I don't really care much about politics but for your arguments sake, 'yes I do' to the bolds above. Secondly you've missed the point of my post.

This is a cable forum, not a the Tory party appreciation society, I can hold my hands up and say I know nothing about politics, Europe, whatever as I have too much on my plate to even bother to spend time trying to understand anything about these subjects but I do have the common sense to know what is going on. And I'm sure a lot of people here are the same. But it doesn't or shouldn't stop people from posting their 'rants' as you call them if they are valid and which are affecting people (myself included) right now.

Of course I'm very interested in what is happening right now, how things are affecting people right now, and it is good to discuss these things and also in terms for those that aren't political experts, but this place seems just against anything bad against the Tories and it's always the same, eg blame the last govt etc.

Arthurs posts are sometimes annoying, one sided etc but he is voicing what a lot of people will not say here especially on this forum because of how harsh this place can be. So for one I welcome his posts.

What has to be remembered is that a lot of peoples idea of good government is based on the Blair/Brown era ,an era i suspect you yourself are basing you political allegiances on .It was a "giveaway" era ,with more and more people entering the welfare system .When people get used to that, it is very hard to take away when the money runs out ,money i should add that was put in the bank ,so to speak,by the conservatives

Originally Posted by martyh

Which in turn goes back to Callaghan,Wilson allowing unions to run the country.Those same unions didn't allow investment in car plants ,dockyards,steel works and pits turning them into state run money pits and those PM's where ,yes, you got it ,Labour.

Because of our history we have ended up with 2 mainstream political parties

Labour= state dominance ,state control

Conservative = self sufficiency ,private enterprise ,less state dominance

It doesn't take a genius to work out that those 2 ideologies are not compatible so we will continue on the merry go round that is politics in the UK .If labour win the next election state dependance will rise ,we will have more and more of the population dependent on the state .If conservative win we will see a continuation of self sufficiency ,less state dependency ,it's that choice you are making when you tick the box

I don't think they're not compatible, I think they represent two different visions and this country and it's electorate prefer a mix of the two with elections indicating a temporary preference for one or the other. More realistically I think that both parties pitch for his middle ground anyway so elections are decided by the perceived competence of the parties rather than strong ideological grounds.

As an example I think most people want the NHS, which is more of a Labour concern and is run by the State at a large cost to the taxpayer. Labour support it, The Conservatives do as well despite their small-government ideology.

So I disagree that the parties are that different from each other, even if there are members within those parties who wish to be, and that they aim for a dodgy compromise between a large state and private enterprise.

[Gary L]

Whichever way you look at it.

The Poll tax was Maggies downfall (Conservative)
The Bedroom tax will be Dave's downfall (Conservative)

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't think they're not compatible, I think they represent two different visions and this country and it's electorate prefer a mix of the two with elections indicating a temporary preference for one or the other. More realistically I think that both parties pitch for his middle ground anyway so elections are decided by the perceived competence of the parties rather than strong ideological grounds.

As an example I think most people want the NHS, which is more of a Labour concern and is run by the State at a large cost to the taxpayer. Labour support it, The Conservatives do as well despite their small-government ideology.

So I disagree that the parties are that different from each other, even if there are members within those parties who wish to be, and that they aim for a dodgy compromise between a large state and private enterprise.

That is a valid point ,i seem remember Blair getting a lot of flack because he wasn't enough of a socialist .

Politics is evolving in this country and the middle ground is becoming more of the norm but it will take generations still to reach that middle ground successfully .I think we still have a massive labour/conservative divide in this country

---------- Post added at 09:53 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------

Originally Posted by Gary L

Whichever way you look at it.

The Poll tax was Maggies downfall (Conservative)
The Bedroom tax will be Dave's downfall (Conservative)

If that proves to be the case we will see exactly where the populace stands on state welfare spending ,more welfare= less investment in other areas less welfare =more investment in other areas ,we can't have both

[peanut]

Originally Posted by martyh

If that proves to be the case we will see exactly where the populace stands on state welfare spending ,more welfare= less investment in other areas less welfare =more investment in other areas ,we can't have both

You probably could if it the new reforms are better thought out more.

Originally Posted by martyh

Politics is evolving in this country and the middle ground is becoming more of the norm but it will take generations still to reach that middle ground successfully .I think we still have a massive labour/conservative divide in this country

I think we're at the middle ground now. The last few elections suggest that.

I agree that there is still a Labour/Conservative divide but I think that exists in a large minority of partisans who aren't that well represented by their respective parties - hence the existence of UKIP. These voters are taken for granted whilst the leadership chases the swinging voters who tend to be moderates almost by definition. That is until you find your core vote leaving for the smaller party, or staying at home, and suddenly you need to call an EU Referendum.

Every single government come up with short term answers. Thatcher helped the present when she was in power but that's left the future stuck like this. Lack of industry means lack of jobs Banking and Insurance is not enough for this country all we are now is a warehouse. Immigration and freedom to travel means even less jobs for native Britain's

Those who said the country was a mess under labour and the unions well at least the working classes and the weak and poor were not being targeted by the rich and wealthy.Also at least there was a difference between the parties back then now they just blur into one.

This country needs political change we need to stand up and stop being the doormat of Europe and the USA's puppy dog

Oh and it does not get past me how in all these threads the comfy middle classes can sit in judgement of these policies safe in the knowledge that its not gonna make a gnats penis difference to any of ya

[peanut]

Originally Posted by martyh

What has to be remembered is that a lot of peoples idea of good government is based on the Blair/Brown era ,an era i suspect you yourself are basing you political allegiances on .It was a "giveaway" era ,with more and more people entering the welfare system .When people get used to that, it is very hard to take away when the money runs out ,money i should add that was put in the bank ,so to speak,by the conservatives

It depends. If you aren't affected by the policies, then you would have a greater voice, but when you are affected then obviously it becomes personal. Do I care (or should I) about everyone else when myself is up poo creak without a paddle...

It doesn't mean I have to agree nor disagree with policies that do affect me either. I personally think benefits really need to be reformed, and as a claiment I think I can speak a bit more about it than those who think their taxes are being spent on 'scroungers'.

I can say that myself included is being paid too much in benefits, but on the other hand I don't know if I'm going to be paid anything at all in a year or so time. They are not listening to the people, nor seeing how it is affecting people now, they are not interested in the little people, just the self sufficient rich.

I have to think for myself because I can't afford to think about other people but I don't want to get tarred with the same brush.

Originally Posted by peanut

You probably could if it the new reforms are better thought out more.

A compromise would be to only apply the HB reduction to 2 spare bedrooms but would then be unfair to those in the private rental market,also it would apply mostly to pensioners .One reason why pensioners are not affected by this in the new rules is because they free up large houses quicker in comparison ,they are more willing to move to smaller more suitable accommodation so are not that much of a problem imo

[peanut]

Originally Posted by martyh

A compromise would be to only apply the HB reduction to 2 spare bedrooms but would then be unfair to those in the private rental market,also it would apply mostly to pensioners .One reason why pensioners are not affected by this in the new rules is because they free up large houses quicker in comparison ,they are more willing to move to smaller more suitable accommodation so are not that much of a problem imo

Or you could say the elderly are the key Tory voters, and you don't want to pee them off now do we.