All Encompassing Are You Religious and Why Thread

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Damien

Atheism is a lack of belief in a deity, which usually means a conscious being that exists outside of our world. Kinda.

I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know where you sit on things, but I am assuming that you are a religious person by the way you have described the above.

Atheism is a "lack" of belief in a deity,

That language implies that Athiests are found wanting/needing, that they are deficient.

I would not say Atheism is a "lack of belief" in a deity, but a "non-belief"

Don't mean to split hairs (well I do otherwise I wouldn't have posted).

I hope you can see the difference between the two.

I didn't put that much thought into the terms I used. lack/non-belief either way.

[Kymmy]

I find the definition between agnostic and atheist in the vote a bit puzzling..

Surely someone who believes in a scientific reason apart from the usual evolution of the planet is both agnostic and atheistic?

Also can't people believe in religion yet also still be agnostic? Is there any reason as to why agnostic can't sit perfectly well besides both Atheism or religion (but obviously not both(just take the religious people who also believe in Darwinism )

Originally Posted by Kymmy

I find the definition between agnostic and atheist in the vote a bit puzzling..

Surely someone who believes in a scientific reason apart from the usual evolution of the planet is both agnostic and atheistic?

Also can't people believe in religion yet also still be agnostic? Is there any reason as to why agnostic can't sit perfectly well besides both Atheism or religion (but obviously not both(just take the religious people who also believe in Darwinism )

An agnostic is someone who doesn't believe in god but is otherwise open to the concept, they don't not believe in god, if that makes sense. The theists believe there is a god whereas an atheists doesn't believe in god.

So an agnostic is somewhere in between the two. I don't see a contradiction there. The only problem is at what point of 'non-belief in god' do you cross over from being agnostic to an atheist? Some people class themselves as being agnostic because they can't disprove god, this is pretty much atheism. Other people may be quite open to the idea but are hesitant as they are not quite sure about it, that would be agnosticism.

Originally Posted by Damien

An agnostic is someone who doesn't believe in god but is otherwise open to the concept, they don't not believe in god, if that makes sense. The theists believe there is a god whereas an atheists doesn't believe in god.

So an agnostic is somewhere in between the two. I don't see a contradiction there. The only problem is at what point of 'non-belief in god' do you cross over from being agnostic to an atheist? Some people class themselves as being agnostic because they can't disprove god, this is pretty much atheism. Other people may be quite open to the idea but are hesitant as they are not quite sure about it, that would be agnosticism.

I think Kymmy's hit the nail on the head here. Nobody can say they are an atheist on the basis of science, because science gives no basis for any conclusion about the existence or otherwise of a deity.

Anyone can of course be an atheist, but let's be absolutely clear about this: atheism is a belief, not a scientific principle.

Originally Posted by Chris

I think Kymmy's hit the nail on the head here. Nobody can say they are an atheist on the basis of science, because science gives no basis for any conclusion about the existence or otherwise of a deity.

There is very little science can conclusively rule out. Pretty much nothing. All we can say is that according the world as we currently understand it we have no evidence for 'x'. Since god exists outside of the Universe as we current know it then we can't rule it out. It's unlikely we ever will because such a concept will always exist outside of our understanding of the Universe, even if we understood everything in it there may be another undiscovered dimension out there.

Most atheists would concede that you can't disprove god. That doesn't shunt them into the agnostic category, since we hold the same principle for anything. We can't disprove Scientology and xenu, Mormons and Joseph Smith, Greek gods or anything else. Doesn't mean we're open to those ideas.

Anyone can of course be an atheist, but let's be absolutely clear about this: atheism is a belief, not a scientific principle.

No it isn't. Atheism is having no belief in a deity. You don't have faith that one exists.

Originally Posted by Damien

No it isn't. Atheism is having no belief in a deity. You don't have faith that one exists.

Umm, no, atheism is belief in non-existence, not non-existence of belief.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Chris

I think Kymmy's hit the nail on the head here. Nobody can say they are an atheist on the basis of science, because science gives no basis for any conclusion about the existence or otherwise of a deity.

Anyone can of course be an atheist, but let's be absolutely clear about this: atheism is a belief, not a scientific principle.

There is however, the scientific principle of parsimony. Given two explanations for a phenomenon, choose the one that has the least degrees of freedom or is most constrained.

I think it's fair to say that an omnipotent being is not very constraining as far as explanations go.

Originally Posted by Chris

Umm, no, atheism is belief in non-existence, not non-existence of belief.

Ok. I was thinking more of faith than belief then. We don't have faith god doesn't exist, we have an absence of faith that he/she/it does.

tbf, we are counting the angels on the head of a pin here..

I always thought that Atheism was disbelief in the existence of God(s), rather than a lack of faith in them (whatever that means....).

[Kymmy]

Begs the question are there religions without a deity?

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Begs the question are there religions without a deity?

Scientology?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Chris

Anyone can of course be an atheist, but let's be absolutely clear about this: atheism is a belief, not a scientific principle.

You're on sticky ground when you start throwing words like "belief" and "faith" around in a religious thread with atheism as one of the main topics.

As "faith" and "belief" are very strong words to those that participate in religion that have deep and spiritual meaning.

Whereas to athiests, they are just words.

I don't have a belief that there is no all powerful supernatural deity , I just dismiss the concept out of hand.

The argument that atheism is some kind of belief system is weak and incorrect.

I see nothing in the world or universe that says to me that this was all created by a supernatural being, that isn't a belief, it's an observation.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by ZrByte

Scientology?

No, they worship Tom Cruise

---------- Post added at 16:30 ---------- Previous post was at 16:29 ----------

Originally Posted by Kymmy

I find the definition between agnostic and atheist in the vote a bit puzzling..

Surely someone who believes in a scientific reason apart from the usual evolution of the planet is both agnostic and atheistic?

As I said, the poll is very flawed and too restrictive.

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by Russ

No, they worship Tom Cruise

Good point, my mistake.