divided our society ?

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by the_neurotic_cat

I did acknowledge that the term was a semantic one that's only really relevent for journalists, not this thread.

However, if you know of any welfare fraud, please report it.

I have, I was told it would be dealt with at some point but they were overworked dealing with all the reports they received daily

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I'm trying to work out if you really are naive enough to believe the above. That is indeed how it' supposed to work, the reality is obviously not quite so clear cut.

That or we're about the sickest nation in the western world.

So either our NHS sucks or we've far too many people on long term disability or a combination of both.

Well something is wrong with the NHS if we truly have the highest stillbirth rate in Europe as reported on the BBC earlier this week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/13078902

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13077669

[the_neurotic_cat]

I've been on both JSA and DLA/IS ... it's not easy to get them, it's not easy to stay on them.

I, like everyone else, can only speak from personal experience. I don't want to get drawn into stereotypes. But, if you know of anyone who has committed welfare fraud, then report it. That's all I can suggest.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Well something is wrong with the NHS if we truly have the highest stillbirth rate in Europe as reported on the BBC earlier this week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/13078902

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13077669

I'd roll with a combination of both as well Maggy.

Sorry I'll stop criticising our beloved NHS now, model for the rest of the world that it is.

---------- Post added at 11:13 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------

Originally Posted by the_neurotic_cat

I've been on both JSA and DLA/IS ... it's not easy to get them, it's not easy to stay on them.

I, like everyone else, can only speak from personal experience. I don't want to get drawn into stereotypes. But, if you know of anyone who has committed welfare fraud, then report it. That's all I can suggest.

Due to the benefits system work can be worth as little as 26p per hour, and indeed some people live in properties and areas that would be unaffordable to them with their 'average' earnings from when working.

Where's the incentive to work when you can stay at home for 30 cigarettes a week less knowing that so long as you go through the appropriate motions you'll be ok?

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I'd roll with a combination of both as well Maggy.

Sorry I'll stop criticising our beloved NHS now, model for the rest of the world that it is.

---------- Post added at 11:13 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------



Due to the benefits system work can be worth as little as 26p per hour, and indeed some people live in properties and areas that would be unaffordable to them with their 'average' earnings from when working.

Where's the incentive to work when you can stay at home for 30 cigarettes a week less knowing that so long as you go through the appropriate motions you'll be ok?

A little bit of training in, What to say, When to jump with pain, When to stop and say your having trouble breathing.

Most can produce an Oscar winning performance when prompted with a bit of know how .

[the_neurotic_cat]

I'll second that ... NHS all the way

Did anyone watch Question Time ? ... that american that suggested healthcare ought to be profitable made my blood boil.

Healthcare in the USA is

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I'm trying to work out if you really are naive enough to believe the above. That is indeed how it' supposed to work, the reality is obviously not quite so clear cut.

That or we're about the sickest nation in the western world.

So either our NHS sucks or we've far too many people on long term disability or a combination of both.

Its a combination of all of them probably. Our NHS (in my view) seems fine for emergencies but when it comes to ongoing illnesses and particurly stuff thats hard to diagnose it fails. Out of everyone I know or people that people I know know, they have trouble with getting help of the nhs for non life threatening conditions. If they think you about to drop dead, then great ambulance is there in 2 minutes, straight to hospital, no waiting in hospital straight to bed and surrounded by staff no problem. However they consider anything non life threatening as a 'minor injury'. Even in this funding boom we have had the previous years hospitals or at least my hospital is sending people home who have had surgery or even making people who have had things like heart bypasses rest on a make shift bed made out of chairs in corridors.

We also have long working hours, there seems to be trend in the past decade that its fine for people to have to work 50-60-70-80 hours a week to get a livable wage. This is more common than you may think, I have worked for multiple companies where more than half of the workforce is doing overtime in physically demanding jobs. That sooner or later will catch up on people's health.

Now in terms of welfare I am not sure if we talking about just immigrants on welfare or welfare as a whole. My experience living in an area with high immigration is that most immigrants work, they are great employees as they will do physically demanding jobs for long hours on low pay. I certianly dont see many in the job centre when I have been there but have seen a lot in places I have worked. The biggest problem I see with immigration is they are a strain as a whole to public services and infrastructure of any given area due to the fact they tend to not spread out evenly across the country. Of course I am excluding asylum seekers who do get housed and are not even allowed to work so must be getting some kind of welfare and as such they also wouldnt be seen in a job centre.

Obviously I dont know exactly how many of my past work colleagues are actually immigrants, however I do talk to these people and many told me they have immigrated to the country for a better life, some can barely speak english and were working so its hard to believe they were born here as well.

[the_neurotic_cat]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I'd roll with a combination of both as well Maggy.

Sorry I'll stop criticising our beloved NHS now, model for the rest of the world that it is.

---------- Post added at 11:13 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------



Due to the benefits system work can be worth as little as 26p per hour, and indeed some people live in properties and areas that would be unaffordable to them with their 'average' earnings from when working.

Where's the incentive to work when you can stay at home for 30 cigarettes a week less knowing that so long as you go through the appropriate motions you'll be ok?

Incentive to work isn't just financial, when i was unemployed i was bored off my rocker despite looking for work. You've got no money to do anything or go anywhere, you can't spend time with your mates because you don't wanna be a sponge ... it's a difficult life.

I'd say that if someone is choosing that, there's something mentally wrong with 'em. In which case, they'll probably need disability anyway.

People seem to regard it as an either/or situation - imho, it's not binary, it's fuzzy.

Health bills are the biggest cause of bankruptcy (57.1%) in the US of A - that is not a good model; however, neither is just pumping more and more money into an already inefficient existing model.

That healthcare is free at the point of access is the place to start from, and then try work out how that can be best done in a world with diminishing financial resources.

---------- Post added at 11:25 ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 ----------

Originally Posted by the_neurotic_cat

Incentive to work isn't just financial, when i was unemployed i was bored off my rocker despite looking for work. You've got no money to do anything or go anywhere, you can't spend time with your mates because you don't wanna be a sponge ... it's a difficult life.

I'd say that if someone is choosing that, there's something mentally wrong with 'em. In which case, they'll probably need disability anyway.

Or they could just be bone-idle, or not share the same work ethic as you - there are other options....

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Well something is wrong with the NHS if we truly have the highest stillbirth rate in Europe as reported on the BBC earlier this week.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/13078902

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13077669

also hideous recovery rates for cancer.

---------- Post added at 11:27 ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 ----------

Originally Posted by the_neurotic_cat

I've been on both JSA and DLA/IS ... it's not easy to get them, it's not easy to stay on them.

I, like everyone else, can only speak from personal experience. I don't want to get drawn into stereotypes. But, if you know of anyone who has committed welfare fraud, then report it. That's all I can suggest.

sensible post, someone who has been on the system and sound advice on what to do.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by the_neurotic_cat

I'll second that ... NHS all the way

Did anyone watch Question Time ? ... that american that suggested healthcare ought to be profitable made my blood boil.

Healthcare in the USA is

Yep NHS all the way

One of the highest stillbirth rates in the developed world, cancer survival rates remain substandard (worse even that Australia, whose healthcare is partly for profit )

Anyway that's probably a discussion for another thread, such as the one discussing it.

[dilli-theclaw]

Originally Posted by Sirius

A little bit of training in, What to say, When to jump with pain, When to stop and say your having trouble breathing.

Most can produce an Oscar winning performance when prompted with a bit of know how .

I wouldn't trust the people (ATOS) that do the testing to open a bag of crisps anyway.

Still, I often get told I'm faking it so am waiting my assessment with interest.

I get IB, DLA and IS but have thus far not had an assessment, although my go and various consultants were contacted.

Originally Posted by the_neurotic_cat

I did acknowledge that the term was a semantic one that's only really relevent for journalists, not this thread.

However, if you know of any welfare fraud, please report it.

I disagree ,i don't think it is a semantic one at all i think it is a correct description of estates that are used by LA's to keep all the undesirables of society in one area as much as possible.You have to realise that welfare fraud is only part of the problem .Quite a lot of long term claimants know the system better than the people working in the department and know all the tricks of getting as much out of the system as possible ,not fraud just in depth knowledge .I have ,in the course of my work ,heard people having conversations along the lines of "betty down the road gets x amount from the nash and she says that if i tell the nash y then i will get it as well", word gets around and before long everyone in that circle of friends is getting X just like betty creating a ghetto of people unwilling to give their lifestyle .Getting people like these off the system is going to be just as hard as stopping people getting on it in the first place imo

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Hugh

People seem to regard it as an either/or situation - imho, it's not binary, it's fuzzy.

Health bills are the biggest cause of bankruptcy (57.1%) in the US of A - that is not a good model; however, neither is just pumping more and more money into an already inefficient existing model.

That healthcare is free at the point of access is the place to start from, and then try work out how that can be best done in a world with diminishing financial resources.

---------- Post added at 11:25 ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 ----------

Or they could just be bone-idle, or not share the same work ethic as you - there are other options....

Here is what I would do.

1 - stop NHS doctors doing non NHS medical work. conflict of interest.
2 - apply some sort of quota to patients seen by doctors, is this a bad idea? nearly everytime I go to see a doctor in a hospital they are visibly standing around taking their time, dawdling etc. whilst having a waiting room full of patients, whilst I think we have a shortage of doctors the situation is hard to assess when the ones we have arent too efficient. My last appointment was 8.45am and my doctor didnt turn up until 9.30am and then took 30 mins to get to seeing patients.
3 - I would reassign nurses or make somr redundant, is clear in some areas they seem to be overstaffed, I have been in multiple wards where they standing around chatting to each other, however some other locations such as a&e seem understaffed.
4 - reassess all contracts with private companies and cancel PFI. Private sector taking the NHS for a ride. (this would get much worse under these reforms).
5 - Stop the prioritisation system based on age. Also stop the assumptions made by doctors that people from about 18 to 40 cant get seriously ill. I have lost count the amount of stories I have read where someone in that age group died or had serious health issues due to doctors not checking them out.
6 - add some kind of record keeping and checks on entry for people using services that are walk in type services (non refferal), these quite possibly get abused. Basic checks should be if legal resident in country and records of previous visits.
7 - things like nhs direct to be changed back to how it was at start (useful) so can actually send out ambulances etc. or scrap it. In its current form its a waste of cash as they only tell you to goto GP or a&e anyway.
8 - to further previous point start using the idle ambulances to take vulnerable patients to and from hospital,far cheaper than covering their taxi fares. Also provide transport's for GP as well as enforce GP's to do home visits and phone consultancy, if they refuse dock salary. Provide system for complaints with ultimate punishment been struck off.

The sad thing is the nhs is actually poorly performing not something that can handle cut backs (which is what privatastion would do). It is also less funded than german and french equivelent service per population?

Another example, in france if you see a local doctor and they decide you need a x-ray, they can do one there and then as have own machines. Here you need a refferal which can take weeks/months making you more ill and as such harder to treat as well as probably off work sick in meantime and then that refferal itself needs dedicated staff to deal with you. This I hope goes some way to explaining why we have more on long term sick as waiting for things like x-rays which shouldnt need a wait.

[Ignitionnet]

Well the above would certainly make NHS professionals feel better about the reforms that the government is pursuing.