Do you want this government out?

[Ignitionnet]

I think you hit it on the head peanut. Voting 'Yes' in the hope that all would go back to how it was before, whatever the consequences, is easy while admitting that it's purely for self-interest isn't so easy to articulate without sounding selfish.

---------- Post added at 12:28 ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 ----------

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

correct I am a taxpayer, I dont hate taxpayers.

But to label it taxpayer's money after it has changed hands is wrong. It is a legal transaction over to the state, at that point it is state money. If you dont consider it to be state money then openly refuse to pay your taxes and see what happens.

Just as a reminder of what the government is they are our elected representatives. One of their functions is to decide how best to allocate our money. When the money goes to the government it is tax payers' money, when they hand it out again it remains money from other tax payers, delivered via the government, not government money. They allocate funding, they don't directly trade goods or services for the money they receive in taxation and do not hold it long term, they hold it until it either is spent or used to pay down debt.

By your logic when you put money into your bank account it becomes the bank's money. When you put some money into your savings it becomes the account operator's.

Your last sentence is ridiculous. The law is the law whatever my opinion of it so it's a non-issue. Regardless of whether it's state money or not the law demands payment and has appropriate penalties for refusing to comply. Sounds almost like extortion doesn't it?

[Chrysalis]

I think most people know we cant go back to how it was before. Even labour said they were going to impose cuts.

For me personally it is I dont like how the tories have shared the burden between cuts and tax increases (too much on cuts), and the unbalanced cuts like ringfencing international aid applying extra cuts on welfare over other budgets. I also dont like how they carry on labour's spin coming out with false figures in public statements to help justify their policies.

---------- Post added at 12:32 ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 ----------

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I think you hit it on the head peanut. Voting 'Yes' in the hope that all would go back to how it was before, whatever the consequences, is easy while admitting that it's purely for self-interest isn't so easy to articulate without sounding selfish.

---------- Post added at 12:28 ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 ----------



Just as a reminder of what the government is they are our elected representatives. One of their functions is to decide how best to allocate our money. When the money goes to the government it is tax payers' money, when they hand it out again it remains money from other tax payers, delivered via the government, not government money. They allocate funding, they don't directly trade goods or services for the money they receive in taxation and do not hold it long term, they hold it until it either is spent or used to pay down debt.

By your logic when you put money into your bank account it becomes the bank's money. When you put some money into your savings it becomes the account operator's.

Your last sentence is ridiculous. The law is the law whatever my opinion of it so it's a non-issue. Regardless of whether it's state money or not the law demands payment and has appropriate penalties for refusing to comply. Sounds almost like extortion doesn't it?

I think you chose a poor comparison you comparing a bank account to paying taxes. So if you are right I can goto my local tax office now and withdraw any taxes I have paid right? it is my money.

I will call it state money from now on rather than government money as the government is elected to run the state.

on the extortion yeah it is thats what it is more or less, as i said before it is enforced sharing of wealth. As people are hardly going to hand it over by themselves.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

When members have stated that the UK are going to supply this and that, WHAT about the UK, they are cutting everything Education, Welfare, closing down OAP Centres, what about us, oh l forgot, the UK is not important enough, we supply the tax, and the government give it to other countries.

These cuts have to happen there is no alternative we were about to have our credit rating lowered meaning we would have paid more in interest for the money we are borrowing. I have more reason then most to fear all these cuts i am dependent on benefit and likely will be for the rest of my life medical cure notwithstanding but i understand that we have to do something drastic.

Arthur i used to view your rants with a smile but you really are becoming tedious now you constantly lay into this government for what they HAVE to do because of the previous thirteen years of labour mismanagement. Yet not a bad word passes your lips for your beloved labour party who i suspect are actually quite happy not to have to be the government at this time sorting out the mess they created.

One area of cuts that is really grinding me is the military as we have so many of our very limited forces commited and seem to be eager to commit more to other areas those cuts are really pathetic. Do i agree with all this government is doing no i don't i thnk benefit reform that IS needed is being done wrong and in a way that is more expensive then it has to be.

Reality is though as it stands as big as we may think the mistakes this government are making are they pale into insignificance with the mistakes of the last government. Sometimes it is more important to remember who put you in the brown stuff rather then blame the poor sods that have to dig you out of it.

[Angua]

Overseas aid is a somewhat circular system in that it helps to keep work here, possibly by supporting countries elsewhere in buying our services. In addition the population in the aided country stays put rather than migrating here using our resources at a higher price. So quite possibly cost neutral.

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

When members have stated that the UK are going to supply this and that, WHAT about the UK, they are cutting everything Education, Welfare, closing down OAP Centres, what about us, oh l forgot, the UK is not important enough, we supply the tax, and the government give it to other countries.

You keep badgering on about cuts Arthur, yet you still don't get it. There is a massive MASSIVE black hole in the UK's money pot.

Come back to reality, if you work a month of no overtime, you get less money, so you have to scale back what you spend in that month, this is a CUT back, unless you choose to use your flexible friend. Labour kept on spending, spend spend spend and then they spent some more, all on the nations flexible friend. As you know with credit, it HAS to be paid back, with interest.

This is where we are now, after 13 years of Labour's spending spree, the money they borrowed now has to be paid back, unfortunately, that means CUTS. If we don't curb the debt burden then our future generation, that's your children's children, will be left with a massive debt mountain, hardly fair, don't you think?

The other issue is that if we do not take hold of the nations finances then we risk going through what other countries are going through, do you recall the Irish needing a bail out? Greece's credit rating being down rated? And now Portugal approaching the EU for an emergency bail out. Do you honestly want this to happen here?

While you are also going on about other countries getting money from us, it's about, 'If we scratch their back, they will scratch ours' only this is through Trade. £650 Million whilst to you and me is a massive amount of money, in UK Export Industry terms, it pales in to insignificance.

I don't like cut backs any more than you do Arthur, but like you and like me, when we become broke or money becomes tight, you, me, we live within our means and cut back on some of lifes essentials. This is equivilent to what the Government is doing now.

tl;dr

Voted No.

I do not think that we can afford to go back to Labour in all honesty, we would be mad to wouldn't we?

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Tuftus

tl;dr

Voted No.

I do not think that we can afford to go back to Labour in all honesty, we would be mad to wouldn't we?

if you believe the current spin yes. Dont take anything coming from parties as gospel.

[Welshchris]

Originally Posted by jb66

I don't mind paying more tax if it means we get our debt down. I like this governents strong stance on folk playing the dole system by claiming they can't work when they can. Too many folk think jobs like picking up litter is below them

But its not just those on the dole they are targeting they are targeting the people who cannot work. I myself am on long term sick becaue of my health which isnt my fault and i need daily treatment and medication which makes me a danger to myself and others in a work place.

I know of 2 people who have been found fit for work so far.

1 has terminal cancer and is in extreme pain all the time he was found fit to go out and find work, he has his incapacity stopped and his DLA.

1 was involved in a car accident many years ago when a truck didnt stop at a traiffic light and rammed his car side on, he had to be cut out of his car and leg amputated on the scene. he is crippled down one side of him and needs constant care and is in constant pain also. Again his incapacity was stopped and so was his DLA and hes been found to be fit.

The problem with what they are doing is these people who are doing the assessing are stopping money to those who clearly need it to try and balance the books to make them look good.

[Ignitionnet]

Your household is obviously not in that bad a state Chris given the monstrous PC in your signature.

I have my doubts about the person with terminal cancer being found fit to work - this would be all over the headlines surely as it's both outrageous injustice and a real news story?

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

When members have stated that the UK are going to supply this and that, WHAT about the UK, they are cutting everything Education, Welfare, closing down OAP Centres, what about us, oh l forgot, the UK is not important enough, we supply the tax, and the government give it to other countries.

I quite agree about supply of tax and the relative benefits seen, that's why I want them to be as low as possible.

Everyone wants the services so long as other people are paying for them, let's cut taxes to the bone and cut services to the bone and let people who want more pay for it themselves, that way no room to complain about paying for other people.

[Welshchris]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Your household is obviously not in that bad a state Chris given the monstrous PC in your signature.

I have my doubts about the person with terminal cancer being found fit to work - this would be all over the headlines surely as it's both outrageous injustice and a real news story?

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------



I quite agree about supply of tax and the relative benefits seen, that's why I want them to be as low as possible.

Everyone wants the services so long as other people are paying for them, let's cut taxes to the bone and cut services to the bone and let people who want more pay for it themselves, that way no room to complain about paying for other people.

What does my household have to do with anything and how well off i have been in the past? Doesnt mean im not struggling now or will be if they make a foolish decision to make me fit for work when i know for a fact that atleast 1 of my medication i am on employers nor myself if i was to try to get self employed would be able to get insurance for me as an employee.

+ the bloke about terminal cancer is totally true and i dont know what he is doing about it because his health is very fragile and phaps doesnt want the hastle or cant take the stress thats totally upto him.

[peanut]

Originally Posted by Welshchris

But its not just those on the dole they are targeting they are targeting the people who cannot work. I myself am on long term sick becaue of my health which isnt my fault and i need daily treatment and medication which makes me a danger to myself and others in a work place.

I know of 2 people who have been found fit for work so far.

1 has terminal cancer and is in extreme pain all the time he was found fit to go out and find work, he has his incapacity stopped and his DLA.

1 was involved in a car accident many years ago when a truck didnt stop at a traiffic light and rammed his car side on, he had to be cut out of his car and leg amputated on the scene. he is crippled down one side of him and needs constant care and is in constant pain also. Again his incapacity was stopped and so was his DLA and hes been found to be fit.

The problem with what they are doing is these people who are doing the assessing are stopping money to those who clearly need it to try and balance the books to make them look good.

While claiming that people that are sick will be looked after, even though they might be about £200 or so worse off. You don't hear about those that will lose all their benefits (thousands of pounds) because their testing means are not fit for purpose. Just ignore those ones and hopefully no one will notice. In the end there won't be many sick people left as they've cured everyone and they will be all in full time employment enjoying life to the full, contributing to society.

Job done.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I think you hit it on the head peanut. Voting 'Yes' in the hope that all would go back to how it was before, whatever the consequences, is easy while admitting that it's purely for self-interest isn't so easy to articulate without sounding selfish.[COLOR="Silver"]

I find that those with that are allowed an opinion because they probably do have the luxury of riding the cuts more selfish that those that live in fear. If they knew what it is really like then I'm sure then they'll think differently.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the need of the cuts or change, but it's in the manner that it is happening. Those that aren't affected too much will have the loudest voice, those like myself won't because to the like of those, we really don't matter.

[Ignitionnet]

You're still buying hardware and able to go to the bar according to other threads, given you've more storage space than many servers, 5.6TB, evidently you're still not doing too badly, which is good.

It would be interesting to see how many more cases like that are around, I would hope the bloke it pursuing this via every avenue possible as it's obviously quite wrong. Hope it gets resolved as it's cases like that that we pay taxes to supply a safety net to.

[Welshchris]

Again i dont see what that has to do with things? What i can afford now doesnt neccessarilly mean i will be able to afford if they make the wrong descission + being able to afford something by saving for months doesnt mean im living in the lap of luxury.

If this was anyone else u wouldnt be picking at it since its me u will have a go but then again thats just life really isnt it.

---------- Post added at 10:19 ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 ----------

Originally Posted by peanut

While claiming that people that are sick will be looked after, even though they might be about £200 or so worse off. You don't hear about those that will lose all their benefits (thousands of pounds) because their testing means are not fit for purpose. Just ignore those ones and hopefully no one will notice. In the end there won't be many sick people left as they've cured everyone and they will be all in full time employment enjoying life to the full, contributing to society.

Job done.

and where will these jobs suddenly appear from since jobs are getting less and less all the time.

[Ignitionnet]

No it's your persecution complex as noted elsewhere by other people but believe what you will. If it's not me persecuting you it's a rude Virgin Media technician or another poster on here or elsewhere. Anyone with a PC costing well into 4 figures who is on long term sick would give a moment of pause.

Noteworthy is that I didn't actually pick on you I merely said that you seem to be doing ok I didn't make any claim about being in the lap of luxury.

Onto the topic in hand jobs are actually being created, the quality of those jobs in terms of conditions and pay is the kicker though.