Students Rioting in London.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by martyh

you're quite right Gazfan ,they do want something for nothing

Apart from the odd person claiming that education should be free, I thought the protests were against an increase in fees rather than fees per se?

[vanman]

but he is very much a Activist
he has a lot to say

Jody McIntyre Direct Activist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOxGD...eature=related

Originally Posted by martyh

you're quite right Gazfan ,they do want something for nothing

No they don't.They want a fair crack of the whip as I got when I was a student.That was a means tested grant and those that didn't have the means(such as me) got a full free grant.Those that had the means got their grant topped up by their parents and in most cases to more than the full grant.

I've more than paid back that grant across the years in the taxes that I paid as I worked.

Originally Posted by Maggy J

No they don't.They want a fair crack of the whip as I got when I was a student.That was a means tested grant and those that didn't have the means(such as me) got a full free grant.Those that had the means got their grant topped up by their parents and in most cases to more than the full grant.

I've more than paid back that grant across the years in the taxes that I paid as I worked.

Thanks, well said, the 'means tested' grant was something I also benefited from, especially when, as a 'mature student' my wife's earnings were taken into account.

- there was never a 'something for nothing' aspect to the process - however, neither was there the implication that by being educated there was, automatically, an incurred debt?

[danielf]

I've said this earlier, but I think it's worth repeating:

Tuition fees in England after the raise will be 3 to 4 times higher than in most of continental Europe, and ~2 times higher than the average for 'home state students' at US public Unis.

Do we really think putting a price on education is going to help us in the global economy?

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Tuftus

OK, so let me get this right...

He gets ripped from his wheelchair, yet gets up to stand in front of the Police horses about to charge?

riiiiiiiight, I smell BS (not with your post martyh but) with an utter retard that would stand in front of Police horses, I mean that *is* properly retarded, what kind of an idiot would do such a thing unless they were looking for attention?

The kind of person that wants to make a point and realises that him being in a wheelchair is so much more photogenic.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by danielf

I've said this earlier, but I think it's worth repeating:

Tuition fees in England after the raise will be 3 to 4 times higher than in most of continental Europe, and ~2 times higher than the average for 'home state students' at US public Unis.

Do we really think putting a price on education is going to help us in the global economy?

Because clearly all institutions will charge the full £9k and accept the conditions and further withdrawal of funding attached, right?

Less of the 'will' and more 'could' is wise right now as neither you nor I have any idea how many will charge £9k and indeed it's quite clear that the policy actively disincentivises doing so.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Because clearly all institutions will charge the full £9k and accept the conditions and further withdrawal of funding attached, right?

Less of the 'will' and more 'could' is wise right now as neither you nor I have any idea how many will charge £9k and indeed it's quite clear that the policy actively disincentivises doing so.

Ok. Let me be more precise then: At £6k, Tuition fees in England will be more than 3 times higher than the highest rates for EU students in continental Europe*, and ~1.5 times the average for 'home state students' at US public Unis.

*Fees in Europe vary considerably. From what I've seen, Germany and the Netherlands are top of the scale at about €2000. There are no tuition fees for EU students in Denmark, Sweden is £30 per semester. France about €200 per year for an undergraduate degree.

http://www.studyineurope.eu/

[Ignitionnet]

Denmark and Sweden both eat approximately 50% of their national income in taxation, France marginally lower though this ignores some other deductions but they are, once the off the books stuff is taken into account, horribly in debt.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ta...otal-as-of-gdp

Once health care, mandatory pension and social security are taken into account Germany and Netherlands also both have significantly higher burdens than the UK where this is rolled into general taxation.

We're Mid-Atlantic for better or worse and comparison to the US is probably fairest

When comparing to the US incidentally it should be noted that the quality of many US degrees is laughable. Do we want to go down that route? Are we already there?

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

Originally Posted by Maggy J

No they don't.They want a fair crack of the whip as I got when I was a student.That was a means tested grant and those that didn't have the means(such as me) got a full free grant.Those that had the means got their grant topped up by their parents and in most cases to more than the full grant.

I've more than paid back that grant across the years in the taxes that I paid as I worked.

What % of people were going on to Higher Education when you did it?

Careful about what you have and have not paid back in taxes over the years, remember we all draw from public services, pay into what is in theory our pension fund, potentially draw welfare at some point, as we pay our taxes so it's really, really hard to say what any of us have and have not paid for.

Being a teacher even though you may or may not have paid for your education, and given the rubbish pay we give our educators it wouldn't surprise if you haven't, you've most certainly paid it back in other ways.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Careful about what you have and have not paid back in taxes over the years, remember we all draw from public services, pay into what is in theory our pension fund, potentially draw welfare at some point, as we pay our taxes so it's really, really hard to say what any of us have and have not paid for.

Being a teacher even though you may or may not have paid for your education, and given the rubbish pay we give our educators it wouldn't surprise if you haven't, you've most certainly paid it back in other ways.

Funded 2 wars with Iraq 1 in Afganistan various other UN involvement like in the former Yugoslavia etc. The arms race. Government expenses. Far to many politicians and councillors wages.

Plenty of things we dont get any use out of we pay for also

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Denmark and Sweden both eat approximately 50% of their national income in taxation, France marginally lower though this ignores some other deductions but they are, once the off the books stuff is taken into account, horribly in debt.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ta...otal-as-of-gdp

Once health care, mandatory pension and social security are taken into account Germany and Netherlands also both have significantly higher burdens than the UK where this is rolled into general taxation.

We're Mid-Atlantic for better or worse and comparison to the US is probably fairest

When comparing to the US incidentally it should be noted that the quality of many US degrees is laughable. Do we want to go down that route? Are we already there?

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------



What % of people were going on to Higher Education when you did it?

Careful about what you have and have not paid back in taxes over the years, remember we all draw from public services, pay into what is in theory our pension fund, potentially draw welfare at some point, as we pay our taxes so it's really, really hard to say what any of us have and have not paid for.

Being a teacher even though you may or may not have paid for your education, and given the rubbish pay we give our educators it wouldn't surprise if you haven't, you've most certainly paid it back in other ways.

I've never had to make any claims beyond child benefit and I really only claimed that to keep up with maintaining NI payments.Never claimed unemployment even though I was technically entitled to do so under the rules at the time.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Denmark and Sweden both eat approximately 50% of their national income in taxation, France marginally lower though this ignores some other deductions but they are, once the off the books stuff is taken into account, horribly in debt.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ta...otal-as-of-gdp

Once health care, mandatory pension and social security are taken into account Germany and Netherlands also both have significantly higher burdens than the UK where this is rolled into general taxation.

We're Mid-Atlantic for better or worse and comparison to the US is probably fairest

When comparing to the US incidentally it should be noted that the quality of many US degrees is laughable. Do we want to go down that route? Are we already there?

True, but the main point I was making is that most of continental Europe is subsidising Higher Education from general taxation, presumably in recognition of the economic benefits of an educated workforce. We are moving away from that, and I am wondering how wise that is given global economic developments. As has been remarked earlier, we don't need an all-graduates workforce, we need binmen as well. Let's just hope we're not making Higher Education so expensive that we end up with a workforce of just binmen, as that makes no economic sense whatsoever.

[Derek]

The mother of an injured student was on sky news there. Her comments, edited and condensed.

The first protest, where an office block got trashed, was an appropriate level of policing. Further protests where the police tried to stop people trashing large chunks of central London were oppressive.
In three big protests she hasn't seen any protestors armed with petrol, snookers balls etc.
She is more interested in protesting rather than being with her son.

Basically she's a walking lefty stereotype. All that was missin was a copy of the guardian under her arm.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by danielf

True, but the main point I was making is that most of continental Europe is subsidising Higher Education from general taxation, presumably in recognition of the economic benefits of an educated workforce. We are moving away from that, and I am wondering how wise that is given global economic developments. As has been remarked earlier, we don't need an all-graduates workforce, we need binmen as well. Let's just hope we're not making Higher Education so expensive that we end up with a workforce of just binmen, as that makes no economic sense whatsoever.

This would depend entirely on the degree being done.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle6829650.ece

A report for Universities UK by PricewaterhouseCoopers in 2007 maintained that degrees were still a sound financial investment. Their figures were based on an estimated “graduate premium�: what a graduate could expect to earn over their lifetime as opposed to an “equivalent� person with two or more A-levels.

On average, the graduate premium was £160,000. But, the more vocational a degree, the greater the benefits. Medicine and dentistry graduates could expect a £340,000 graduate premium; engineering graduates, £243,730; European- language graduates, £96,261; and arts graduates, a paltry £36,949. Whether these figures still hold true in a recession is not clear.

http://www.personneltoday.com/articl...year-high.html

Originally Posted by danielf

Ok. Let me be more precise then: At £6k, Tuition fees in England will be more than 3 times higher than the highest rates for EU students in continental Europe*, and ~1.5 times the average for 'home state students' at US public Unis.

*Fees in Europe vary considerably. From what I've seen, Germany and the Netherlands are top of the scale at about €2000. There are no tuition fees for EU students in Denmark, Sweden is £30 per semester. France about €200 per year for an undergraduate degree.

http://www.studyineurope.eu/

Some recent interesting (imho) info on US student debt - Education Bubble

One interesting stat was that, on average, it takes 5.4 years to complete a four year course, and the average student debt is $23k (just under £15k).

I didn't realise that the public State Universities charged higher fees for out of state applicants.