Students Rioting in London.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I'm quite aware of that.

That still leaves 33hrs from a normal working week.

+ extra study hours that I would expect a dedicated person to undertake.

Which in my opinion leaves plenty of time to do course work and seek gainful employment.

Actually, I'd say that 10 hours of lectures a week is quite a lot if you're serious about preparing for them. That doesn't mean you can't spend some time working (as I'm sure many students do), but certainly not 30/33 hours.

My son is a first year student (studying History), and has 12 hours of lectures/direct teaching time a week - he is expected (as a minimum) to spend three hours self-study for every hour of direct contact (that makes 48 hours a week).

He has tried for a part time job, but has been told by the (over 20) places he has applied to that they don't do term-time only jobs, as their busy times are over Christmas (I would much rather he, and so would he, had a job, as he always had part-time jobs in restaurants when he was in 5th and 6th Form)

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by danielf

Actually, I'd say that 10 hours of lectures a week is quite a lot if you're serious about preparing for them. That doesn't mean you can't spend some time working (as I'm sure many students do), but certainly not 30/33 hours.

Of course.

The point I'm making is that, 40hrs is accepted as a normal working week.

But let's add on top of that at least a couple of extra hours a day, minimum, of extra effort that you should be expected to put in.

That = 50hrs a week of available time for study and work, and I think that is quite conservative, and doesn't include weekends.

So out of that 50hrs - 10hrs direct time for lectures, leaves 40hrs a week.

Even if you use a further 25hrs of that for the rest of your study that would still leave 15hrs a week.

15hrs a week at minimum wage for 50weeks year would still bring in £4,500 a year, less any deductions.

So there's a way of mitigating the increase in tuition fees.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Amazing how someone so "educated" can so easily contradict themselves in such a short space of time.

Okay then, we shall see.

Here you have a go at Derek and cite Obviously making the point that University Degrees are a worthy thing to aim for.

This is news? That university degrees are something to aim for?
I swear, only on CF.

and go on to spout that he probably never went to Uni, spouting drivel about someone you nothing about
Then when it's pointed out to you that Derek did go to Uni, you post
So you by your own admission agree that that there are "worthless Degrees" or "Degrees of no use"

Pipe and slippers brigade right enough...

Pierre, of course there are worthless degrees out there !! Noone will deny that, there are plenty of them, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't invest in our future. Thats simply taking things too far, but a middle ground is probably needed.

Please advise what, in your, vast experience what degrees are worth their salt and what degrees aren't. I'm really interested to know.

I'm educated enough to not spend all day arguing with some people on CF, because it is quite frankly a complete waste of time.

Also, there's nothing like the fresh scent of CF member sarcasm to end the morning. In my...ahem..vast experience as you put it, I'd say the degrees worth their salt start with the science degrees, and then down from there. The more students we can produce that can excel in the sciences then ultimately the better it will be for us. There will always be plenty of students to fill the other slots in other sectors

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Or that someone's telling "epic" fibs, if you'd earned a degree worth its salt I seriously doubt you'd be serving in your current career field.
No offense meant, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Fair enough. Your wrong and plenty of cops have degrees. The majority in my force join after doing 10 years or so in another job to get some life experience.

Besides the money you can earn in my job isn't exactly pocket change.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by danielf

Responsible yes, but that doesn't mean they caused (all of) it. A large part of the current deficit was caused by an international financial crisis. The UK is not the only country that has to make drastic cuts. It seems rather naive to me to suggest there wouldn't have been a mess under a different government. Perhaps there would have been less of a mess, but if you look around Europe, there are plenty countries that need to make deep cuts regardless of the colour of the government.

Sorry but where have I ever claimed they caused all of it or that there couldn't possibly have been any such problems under a different government? I said they were responsible and the fact that certain other governments around the world were just as inept or even worse doesn't excuse our former leaders one jot. Having said that, as the major financial centre outside NY, what was allowed to happen in the City right under the nose of Brown directly affected many other countries and it was the abject failure of the regulatory system set up on his watch that allowed things to get as bad as they did.

Not quite the same as saying none of it would have happened under the Tories....

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Of course.

The point I'm making is that, 40hrs is accepted as a normal working week.

But let's add on top of that at least a couple of extra hours a day, minimum, of extra effort that you should be expected to put in.

That = 50hrs a week of available time for study and work, and I think that is quite conservative, and doesn't include weekends.

So out of that 50hrs - 10hrs direct time for lectures, leaves 40hrs a week.

Even if you use a further 25hrs of that for the rest of your study that would still leave 15hrs a week.

15hrs a week at minimum wage for 50weeks year would still bring in £4,500 a year, less any deductions.

So there's a way of mitigating the increase in tuition fees.

I disagree regarding the numbers. I think it's a bit silly to expect students to spend 50 hours a week working/studying. There's more to Uni than that.

---------- Post added at 12:13 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Sorry but where have I ever claimed they caused all of it or that there couldn't possibly have been any such problems under a different government? I said they were responsible and the fact that certain other governments around the world were just as inept or even worse doesn't excuse our former leaders one jot. Having said that, as the major financial centre outside NY, what was allowed to happen in the City right under the nose of Brown directly affected many other countries and it was the abject failure of the regulatory system set up on his watch that allowed things to get as bad as they did.

Not quite the same as saying none of it would have happened under the Tories....

OK fair enough. I was just pointing out that it's as naive to say that Labour where not to blame as it is to say they were 100% to blame. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by danielf

I disagree regarding the numbers. I think it's a bit silly to expect students to spend 50 hours a week working/studying. There's more to Uni than that

That's were I totally disagree.

"There's more to Uni that that"?

Well why should anyone else pay for that experience than the student themselves?

[Osem]

Possibly one way forward would be to condense some of these courses to 2 years in order to make better use of available time and reduce the costs to students.

---------- Post added at 12:36 ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 ----------

Originally Posted by danielf

OK fair enough. I was just pointing out that it's as naive to say that Labour where not to blame as it is to say they were 100% to blame. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Somewhere to the left of middle wouldn't you say?...

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Osem

Somewhere to the left of middle wouldn't you say?...

Nice one

I have no particular party political allegiance. I consider myself left of centre, but I grew up in a system based on political consensus. There's no party x is good and party y is bad here. I take things as they come. I find the partisanism that FPTP breeds unwelcome and unproductive, which is why I'm really pleased that we have a coalition government now. Long may it continue (regardless of the actual parties making up the coalition).

Originally Posted by Osem

Oh right so the party in power during the entire period when all this was being allowed to happen aren't responsible for it? That's a novel definition of political accountability.....

I meant I didn't buy into the dubious 'fact' that we're in as dire a situation as the Tories were making out during the election or to justify the cuts. We seems to be worst off than some countries but better off than others, somewhere in the middle.

Finally, I think it was a very small minority of 'usual suspects' who caused all the trouble yesterday. I just hope that when they plan future protests, however, the NUS will think harder about when/where/how and do as much as they can to prevent this minority hijacking their cause. It wouldn't have done their image any harm if the majority had visibly let their feelings be known to the troublemakers.

There NUS did let their feelings known, that's not as dramatic as smashing windows though.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

I meant I didn't buy into the dubious 'fact' that we're in as dire a situation as the Tories were making out during the election or to justify the cuts. We seems to be worst off than some countries but better off than others, somewhere in the middle.

I say again, somewhere left of middle surely....

There's little doubt in my mind that they've taken a pessimistic line on the state of affairs but, given the stakes, I'd say that's the sensible thing to do both economically and politically. If we're all prepared for the very worst and things don't turn out quite that badly we'll be far more likely to grin and bear it. The alternative option could cause mayhem.

Originally Posted by Damien

There NUS did let their feelings known, that's not as dramatic as smashing windows though.

Yes I've been listening to NUS reps condemn it on the radio and TV. I was really referring to all those protesters on the ground who could see what was going on and didn't seem to be too upset by it all or willing to voice their objections to their protest being hijacked in such an appalling manner.

---------- Post added at 13:11 ---------- Previous post was at 13:01 ----------

Originally Posted by danielf

I have no particular party political allegiance. I consider myself left of centre, but I grew up in a system based on political consensus. There's no party x is good and party y is bad here. I take things as they come. I find the partisanism that FPTP breeds unwelcome and unproductive, which is why I'm really pleased that we have a coalition government now. Long may it continue (regardless of the actual parties making up the coalition).

Nor me. I have views on both sides of centre and don't see why we can't enjoy the best of both instead of eduring the worst of one, then the other, in some endless pendular cycle. I really hope the coalition works and genuinely believe that it's incumbent upon those in power now to put their party allegiances aside for the greater good of the country. There'll be plenty of time for arguing political points when we've dragged UK PLC out of this mess.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Osem

Nor me. I have views on both sides of centre and don't see why we can't enjoy the best of both instead of eduring the worst of one, then the other, in some endless pendular cycle. I really hope the coalition works and genuinely believe that it's incumbent upon those in power now to put their party allegiances aside for the greater good of the country. There'll be plenty of time for arguing political points when we've dragged UK PLC out of this mess.

Your sig strongly suggests otherwise...

[Osem]

Originally Posted by danielf

Your sig strongly suggests otherwise...

As I've said before, my signature purely expresses my disatisfaction with much of what Labour have done as opposed to what they said they'd do prior to 1997 and how they'd do it.

Anyway, having suffered a decade of lies, spin and ineptitude at the hands of Bliar and Brown it's still more indicative of how I feel than something like

"Support the Tories, they're grrrreat!!!"

I'm in recovery now though so if this lot cock it up on a similar scale I'll be reflecting that in a brand new signature....

Originally Posted by Osem

I say again, somewhere left of middle surely....

There's little doubt in my mind that they've taken a pessimistic line on the state of affairs but, given the stakes, I'd say that's the sensible thing to do both economically and politically. If we're all prepared for the very worst and things don't turn out quite that badly we'll be far more likely to grin and bear it. The alternative option could cause mayhem.

I think they are using it too reduce the size of the state dramatically. I not sure if that's what people want but it wasn't a choice presented. People voted to do what was needed, not to cut where we don't absolutely need too.

Yes I've been listening to NUS reps condemn it on the radio and TV. I was really referring to all those protesters on the ground who could see what was going on and didn't seem to be too upset by it all or willing to voice their objections to their protest being hijacked in such an appalling manner.

There was a chant from the protesters at the bottom of the tower directed at those who had broken in and hit the roof to tell them not to throw stuff. Although they used rather more colourful language, hence why I won't link to it. The Guardian's Live blog of the event yesterday has it embedded though.