Scores die in Israeli air strikes

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I think he cannot say much beyond pointing at the present president for the next 18 days.After that I'm sure he'll be vocal enough.

Maybe, well he will have to be, but I suspect this is a difficult area for him. A lot of his supporters will have some sympathy with the Palestinians, but a lot of America is very pro-Israel. He will have to walk a tightrope to avoid annoying either group, a task he needs to do in order to be able to have some creditability with both groups during any possible talks.

I think it's also a further indication of the smart choice of Clinton as Secretary of State

[SMG]

Well the US has come down on the Israeli side, not unexpected. There does appear to be less civilian casualties with the ground troops advancing, although tanks are still targeting buildings. There isn't as much support for Hamas as I thought, although the Arab nations condemn Israel, they are being a bit cagey when it comes to Hamas.

Lets just hope this runs its course without too many casualties, on either side.

[frogstamper]

Originally Posted by chaos23

Unfortunatley, short of Israel confiming the use of Chemical weapons, you will not concede. Why is this? Because you are firmly on the side of the Israelis. At times like this, people like you crawl out of the woodwork, in order to promote the propaganda the Israeli gov produces.

Why anybody bothers having a debate, or better tries having a debate with such an offensive person is beyond me.
Obviously you have strong views concerning the Palestinians, which most people do, including foreverwar, but any disagreement with your conspiratorial view is, as always met by vitriol and personal abuse by yourself.

pic says it all i believe...

what do those who favour israel, have to say about the constant illegal demolishments of houses, illegal settlements, blockade of aid, taking away land etc

the way I look at this is, for example, say the uk agreed to give manchester to nazis, because nazis desired to have a place to call their own and have a right to exist. but over time the nazis started ruining liverpool homes, take away land in chester and slowly expand their territory, how would those in liverpool feel...? especially too when the nazis are armed to their teeth, have financial, political and religious backing from lets say the US (hint). liverpool citizens have no means of getting their land back, how do they fight back hmmmm?

[SMG]

Originally Posted by i-Set

pic says it all i believe...

If you read previous posts m8, you will see your point has been made, several times.

Frogstamper, I fully agree with you m8, But you can only post either facts or your own point of view m8. If someone doesn't want to believe you, they dont have to. Conspiracy & Murder feature quite a lot, but not much is backed up by facts.

Telling peeps "people like you crawl out of the woodwork", is not very diplomatic. You know guys, if we dont keep this on topic its going to end up like Hamas, defeated.

Having said that, does anyone seriously think Hamas will be victorious, or will they just get the crap kicked out of them.

[frogstamper]

The real irony is that most outsiders looking in can see only to well what the outcome must be, a viable independent Palestinian state living next door to a safe Israel.
There can be no other peaceful outcome to this current nightmare, I imagine most moderates on both sides realise this but as always are continually let down by the hardliners on both sides.

Originally Posted by SMG

If you read previous posts m8, you will see your point has been made, several times.

Having said that, does anyone seriously think Hamas will be victorious, or will they just get the crap kicked out of them.

i was focusing on that land point, the main point of everything that is going on today - the root of all problems. give back the palestines their land simple. As a muslim my self I totally see Jews right to exist, and jews, muslims and christians have been living side by side for many centuries, but like I said the main problem is the land issue...and when did this land issue start, well when the zionist movement wanted to return to the "promised land". fair enough come the more the merrier, but as days go the territory expands.

you guys are not seeing the bigger picture...all these minor wars are nothing, israel is funded by the us, who believe in the return of the jesus and are anticipating for him to return to land owned by jews and not muslims. simple, why do you think the Bush is allowing them to go on, didnt Bush say before the iraq war, he saw a dream and god told him to do it or something?

of course Hamas is going to get their arms broken, Israel is one of the most militarised nations on the earth backed by the us.

on a side dish - i once saw a program relating to tourists going to juraselem from the US to see the land where jesus is meant to be coming, and they bought stuff from some jew shops, but when they went near muslim shops this lady says, I dont want to buy from there, theyre muslims. says it all i think

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by SMG

If Israel wanted to kill Civillians, they would never send in ground troops. The troops would stay safe while air power reduces the place to rubble. The fact that they have now started a ground offensive is to root out the people who are terrorising Civillians in Israel. They have already stated that their mission is, to stop Hamas firing rockets into their land.

You could equally argue that using ground forces will only escalate the situation still further.

They are doing exactly what any country would do

Except they aren't, negotiation is the only way this conflict and all the troubles in the area will stop, it's alright Israel saying they are peaceful but talk is cheap when they don't even keep to the terms of the previous cease fire, they point the finger at Hamas for firing missiles but under the terms of the agreement they were supposed to stop the blockade of Gaza, they didn't they increased it with a complete disregard for the people of Gaza, talk of trying to keep civilian casualties down and 'we are not their enemies' is utter rubbish when you are blowing them up and your previous actions caused them to eat grass and treatable cancer patients to die because they weren't allowed to leave and continue their treatment

---------- Post added at 06:04 ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 ----------

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Can I re-iterate what I have stated in this post before - I am not pro-Israeli, I am pro even-handedness.

So am I, pro people to be exact and on that subject members here keep posting links to how rabid Hamas are and some of them most certainly are however there are plenty who are prepared to negotiate, infact I even remember seeing some thing about a normalisation of relations with Israel if they pull back to the 1967 borders, what I haven't see anyone post yet is how equally rabid some Israeli's are, many don't believe in a 2 state solution and some of them are in very high up positions in government, they won't be happy until every Palestinian has been driven out and I believe I am right in saying a certain chap in a persistent vegetative state felt the same

btw, still awaiting substantiation of your claim that the Israelis are using Chemical Weapons

Is this enough evidence? The use as a smoke screen on a battle field isn't illegal but to use it in a built up area is but then most countries find the use of cluster bombs abominable but that didn't stop the IDF in the Lebanon did it.

---------- Post added at 06:08 ---------- Previous post was at 06:04 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

The United Nations? Few would be able to excuse an attack on a external army. Hamas attacks a British/French/German solider and they won't just have Israel to deal with...

Why's that then, Israel killed 4 UN peacekeepers in the last war, many say they did it on purpose, I dont know about that, what I do know is that they ignored many many warnings about their shelling of the position and when that failed to kill them they sent in an air strike, draw your own conclusions and nothing happened to them did it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5215366.stm

---------- Post added at 06:15 ---------- Previous post was at 06:08 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

I wonder what their intended end game is? Do they really think they can get rid of Hamas? I suspect they could destroy a good amount of their military infrastructure.

I doubt it'll achieve anything really, they won't destroy Hamas, just like they couldn't destroy Hezbollah, Israel won't be any safer and the whole thing will carry on as before in time

---------- Post added at 06:17 ---------- Previous post was at 06:15 ----------

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I think he cannot say much beyond pointing at the present president for the next 18 days.After that I'm sure he'll be vocal enough.

I hope he is and a bit more even handed to boot

[Sir John Luke]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

this enough evidence? The use as a smoke screen on a battle field isn't illegal but to use it in a built up area is but then most countries find the use of cluster bombs abominable but that didn't stop the IDF in the Lebanon did it.

Thank you.

[soicky]

Originally Posted by i-Set

pic says it all i believe...

what do those who favour israel, have to say about the constant illegal demolishments of houses, illegal settlements, blockade of aid, taking away land etc

the way I look at this is, for example, say the uk agreed to give manchester to nazis, because nazis desired to have a place to call their own and have a right to exist. but over time the nazis started ruining liverpool homes, take away land in chester and slowly expand their territory, how would those in liverpool feel...? especially too when the nazis are armed to their teeth, have financial, political and religious backing from lets say the US (hint). liverpool citizens have no means of getting their land back, how do they fight back hmmmm?

Agree with you there totally, the root of the problem is land, Israel keeps on expanding taking over Palestinian land, if my next door neighbour starting paving over my lawn, and the council said it was illegal but did nothing every time i rang them up, i wouldn't just sit back and watch him.

I would take action by trying to get my land back. He is much stronger physically and financially, he has links with the police and council so they are on his side.

I personally wouldn't start throwing bricks threw his window or setting his car alight but the difference is this is going on on a much larger scale in Palestine. They are losing homes, businesses, Jobs etc. They are retaliating by launching rockets back at Israel.


Hamas cannot be defeated just like Hezbollah, Israel will kill many civilians and than move out like they have been doing for the past 60 years. Few years time same thing will happen again. International community are to blame as well by not taking any action.

Maybe Obama will make a change, who knows though hey, good to see people sharing their thoughts though.

Originally Posted by SMG

If you read previous posts m8, you will see your point has been made, several times.

so if my point has been made several times the people reading this thread will understand that israel is based on illegal land...i mean throughout history what they only been there for a mere 70.....70 years. I mean the persian people once ruled more than half the world, today if a persian movement with persian ancestors today decided they wanted to reclaim their land, would everyone budge over and accept their demands?

I mean the land you call Israel was Palestine for 1700 years, with everyone living together, but like I said before its all to do with the zionist movement and the return of jesus...some of you guys are delving so much into small stuff, take a gestalt attidue and see the whole.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...t_10608150.htm

cute kid huh....I mean throughout 6 years 20 i think have died in israel or around that figure. look how many have died in palestine within one week, mostly civilian.

[Maribel]

Originally Posted by se917

Maybe Obama will make a change, who knows though hey, good to see people sharing their thoughts though.

There is no hope. Obama's chief of staff was an Israeli soldier and self declared Zionist. Google "Rahm Emanuel Zionist", it's well documented.

[soicky]

Originally Posted by Maribel

There is no hope. Obama's chief of staff was an Israeli soldier and self declared Zionist. Google "Rahm Emanuel Zionist", it's well documented.

Alot of people including myself know that there isn't any chance obama will make much difference, but at the end of the day all you got is hope. Once thats gone what's left?

Originally Posted by Maribel

Google "Rahm Emanuel Zionist", it's well documented.

Well, it would be if you restrict your search only to those web pages that discuss the charge against him.

What is it with you conspiracy nuts - are you scared of open discussion or what? Why this never-ending need to limit debate only to niche sources that back up your viewpoint?

Originally Posted by Chris

Well, it would be if you restrict your search only to those web pages that discuss the charge against him.

What is it with you conspiracy nuts - are you scared of open discussion or what? Why this never-ending need to limit debate only to niche sources that back up your viewpoint?

with all due respect sir, I think he has a valid point - more or less the entire media is run by pro-zionist jews, cnn, fox, bbc radio etc, I think what hes trying to say is jews run everything currently, so the idea of any peace agreements that isnt israels idea of peace will not be agreed - in my OPINION israels idea of peace is world dominance - simple, those of you who disagree please make your point as to why Im wrong. before any of you throw the anti-semetic card at me im not. Im simply anti-zionist.

I think there should be no Israel and no Palestine, both countries should be combined into i dont know something called fudgeland where every citizen has equal rights, those palestinians who were ousted from their homes should have a right to return, all land bought illegaly where they just think because no one is there, its theirs should be returned, return of all 10000 palestinians, hamas should be disarmed and israles nuclear weopons be destroyed - aaah pinch me Im dreaming again

talking about nuclear weapons, could someone please enlighten me as to why the us was allowed to go on to an illegal war, using the mass weapons of destruction excuse and saying it is going to cause havoc in the middle east while israel has nuclear weapons - so you see it all seems like a conspiracy - everything the us does is pro-israel, understand that its an ally but cmon surely those of you who are neutral can see whats going on.