Scores die in Israeli air strikes

Moving on, Israel are now deep into Gaza. They are now so entrenched into Gaza that, according to the BBC, they have effectively cut the territory into two parts.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7810804.stm

Originally Posted by BBC

Israeli ground troops and heavy armour have moved deeper into the Gaza Strip, in effect cutting the territory in two.

Supported by a naval, air and land bombardment, forces have taken up positions on either side of Gaza City, and along a major east-west road.

[SMG]

I suspect they will divide it into 4 parts before long.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by SMG

Crap. The destruction is defiantly not the same.

The difference is that the dime weapon gives you a greater chance of survival, despite the damage.

Do you think any soldier cares about the possibility of developing cancer, if he survives a hit???? Matey, when your in close vicinity to a nail bomb or hesh, theres nothing left to develop cancer. One of the reasons this type of weapon was designed, is to take out the "concealed" enemy.

You know, saying things like "Not only that, this weapon goes into the atmosphere, and people who were not effected by the initial blast would get cancer." does not enhance your arguments.

You convienetly fail to mention, once again, women and children. Or are they just classed as collateral damage.

"Toxic/Carcinogenic Effects

The carcinogenic effects of heavy metal tungsten alloys (HMTA) have been studied by the U.S. Armed Forces since at least 2000 (along with depleted uranium (DU)). These alloys were found to cause neoplastic transformations of human osteoblast cells[3].

A more recent U.S. Department of Health study in 2005 found that HMTA shrapnel rapidly induces rhabdomyosarcoma cancers in rats.[4]

The tungsten alloy carcinogenicity may be most closely related to the nickel content of the alloys used in weapons to date. However, pure tungsten and tungsten trioxide are also suspected of causing cancer and other toxic properties, and have been shown to have such effects in animal studies. [5]"

Originally Posted by SMG

I suspect they will divide it into 4 parts before long.

I wonder what their intended end game is? Do they really think they can get rid of Hamas? I suspect they could destroy a good amount of their military infrastructure.

[icestar2]

Originally Posted by chaos23

You convienetly fail to mention, once again, women and children. Or are they just classed as collateral damage.

Oh yeah because they are immune to bullets, rockets, nail bombs, land mines etc etc. I dont understand your argument there tbh chaos ?

---------- Post added at 21:28 ---------- Previous post was at 21:26 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

I wonder what their intended end game is? Do they really think they can get rid of Hamas? I suspect they could destroy a good amount of their military infrastructure.

Is this better than the airstrike's though ? Ive noticed people have been saying the only way to achieve anything with military means is to use ground forces so is now the right move ?

[SMG]

Originally Posted by chaos23

You convienetly fail to mention, once again, women and children. Or are they just classed as collateral damage.

"Toxic/Carcinogenic Effects

The carcinogenic effects of heavy metal tungsten alloys (HMTA) have been studied by the U.S. Armed Forces since at least 2000 (along with depleted uranium (DU)). These alloys were found to cause neoplastic transformations of human osteoblast cells[3].

A more recent U.S. Department of Health study in 2005 found that HMTA shrapnel rapidly induces rhabdomyosarcoma cancers in rats.[4]

The tungsten alloy carcinogenicity may be most closely related to the nickel content of the alloys used in weapons to date. However, pure tungsten and tungsten trioxide are also suspected of causing cancer and other toxic properties, and have been shown to have such effects in animal studies. [5]"

Ah, the penny drops. YES. Collateral damage includes Civillians, women, children, cats, dogs, & anyone else who is unintentionally injured.

Read your own post now. suspected of causing cancer.

Topic gentlemen please.

Originally Posted by icestar2

Is this better than the airstrike though ? people have been saying the only way to achieve anything with military means is to use ground forces so is now the right move ?

There are people with actual military experience on this forum, so they will have a much better education than me on this.

I guess they can strike with a lot more precision as a ground force, but it could led to open warfare between Israel and Hamas which might be just as deadly as what appears to be responsibly precise air strikes. Now though they are willing to put their own peoples lives in the line, which I guess we could take as a indication that they are serious about this war

[Uncle Peter]

Just to put the tungsten alloy weapon issue to bed I think the concern is that, for example: you could be injured by a conventional bomb and live a relatively normal life or you could be injured by one of these things with an increased risk of developing cancer. Not to mention the potentially nasty by products which may be left lying around if they're not cleaned up.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Damien

I wonder what their intended end game is? Do they really think they can get rid of Hamas? I suspect they could destroy a good amount of their military infrastructure.

I dont think they are naive enough to think they will rid the place of Hamas, but they have already made an impression on their infrastructure & command. I reckon another 6-9 days will see it out. I did think Obama may have made a "peace" visit & put pressure on, but unless someone does, Israel will just plod on.

Icestar2, Regarding the "Air strike" scenario, it is easier to destroy the enemy with air power. Wars start & can finish with air power. However, collateral damage is very high. Unfortunately, the only way to clear an urban area, with minimum collateral damage, is with ground troops. Or, as the yanks would say, use grunts.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by Uncle Peter

Just to put the tungsten alloy weapon issue to bed I think the concern is that, for example: you could be injured by a conventional bomb and live a relatively normal life or you could be injured by one of these things with an increased risk of developing cancer. Not to mention the potentially nasty by products which may be left lying around if they're not cleaned up.

Thats the point i was trying to get across.

Originally Posted by SMG

I dont think they are naive enough to think they will rid the place of Hamas, but they have already made an impression on their infrastructure & command. I reckon another 6-9 days will see it out. I did think Obama may have made a "peace" visit & put pressure on, but unless someone does, Israel will just plod on.

I wonder if this conflict will ever end, we like making comparisons to Northern Ireland but this seems so much more complex. War seems to be too engrained in the minds of both sides that it seems unlikely the population of either side will put pressure for a lasting solution.

It will be interesting to see the aftermath this time around, Obama really needs to tell Israel to restrain themselves! A task which is not easy unless Hamas/Hizbollah stop trying to provoke em.

Wonder if Obama is beginning to regreat winning the election Come to think of it, Does anyone remember Biden saying that Obama will be faced with a serious crisis when he takes up office? Spooky.

[icestar2]

Originally Posted by Damien

It will be interesting to see the aftermath this time around, Obama really needs to tell Israel to restrain themselves! A task which is not easy unless Hamas/Hizbollah stop trying to provoke em.

I would amagine he will have something to say as soon as he actually takes office but until then he seems to be keeping his lips tight. Or then again maybe he/his team have not decided what they are going to do/say yet ?

Originally Posted by Damien

I wonder if this conflict will ever end, we like making comparisons to Northern Ireland but this seems so much more complex. War seems to be too engrained in the minds of both sides that it seems unlikely the population of either side will put pressure for a lasting solution.

It will be interesting to see the aftermath this time around, Obama really needs to tell Israel to restrain themselves! A task which is not easy unless Hamas/Hizbollah stop trying to provoke em.

Wonder if Obama is beginning to regreat winning the election Come to think of it, Does anyone remember Biden saying that Obama will be faced with a serious crisis when he takes up office? Spooky.

I think he cannot say much beyond pointing at the present president for the next 18 days.After that I'm sure he'll be vocal enough.

[SMG]

I think its a wise politician who sits on the fence here. Obamas probably thinking well, let George sort it, if he makes a mistake, I can jump in later on.

The more I learn, the more I see no hope for a peace. These guys hate each other, & as far as I'm concerned, Religion plays a massive part.

It seems that two peoples with equal rights cannot share a common land, & just get on with it. Theres always someone in the background with nothing better to do, than stir up trouble.