Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[SMG]

Originally Posted by chaos23

I keep hearing this, just because you have travelled does not make one an expert on a subject.

Bit of a dig at me there eh.

Absolutely right, but we are talking about conflict here. One country against another, one group against another, combat, terrorism, tactics, a smaller faction against a larger one. As a soldier for half my life, serving all over the world, I have experienced this type of conflict for myself.

Unlike armchair warriors, who know nothing about the real world, except what they read..

Please enlighten me, what experience do you base your arguments on.

---------- Post added at 19:58 ---------- Previous post was at 19:55 ----------

Originally Posted by demented

I disagree in the most fundamental terms. What you are describing and (apparently) condoning are Crimes Against Humanity. Someone likes country a and dislikes country b, fair dos, but trying to legitmise Crimes Against Humanity needs challenging again and again and again.

I suggest you re read my post & explain why you think I condone crimes against humanity.

[demented]

Originally Posted by SMG

I suggest you re read my post & explain why you think I condone crimes against humanity.

I'm happy to. What you described were crimes against humanity. The parts that were apparently condoning it were the parts that justified it in abstract terms such as other people here don't know "military" stuff if we can put it like that.

I dont want to have a go at anyone in particular, but some of you show a complete lack of common sense, military knowledge, or terrorist tactics.

and

This isnt rocket science, its basic military knowledge. Its called PROPAGANDA, & some of you fell for it.

Any sustained attack on a civilian population is a Crime Against Humanity. You are condoning it here below by switching and saying well, it's actually the other side's fault and well heck they had to strike back (presumably disproportionately).

Small groups often use tactics outlawed by virtually every civilised state. You do not launch any attack, or fire from, any building or area, used by the civilian population.

Should you do so, you will deliberately be inviting a deadly response from your enemy. The outcome will be civilian casualties. Saddam used these tactics during his reign, with great success.

Israel may have done the killing, but HAMAS pulled the trigger.

Sounds like condoning it to me.

It was a deliberate act of murder. They knew that any professional army will only target known enemy locations. In other words, the launch, or firing point. Deliberately setting the enemy up to kill civilians has been done for years, its nothing new, but I am amazed at the number of people who cant see past their own noses.

It is nothing new, it has been done for centuries. However humanity has grown up and it is now rated amongst the most heinous crimes to exist. For someone who says they aren't condoning it, I find it strange you don't mention this rather large change that happened in the 20th century.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by demented

I'm happy to. What you described were crimes against humanity. The parts that were apparently condoning it were the parts that justified it in abstract terms such as other people here don't know "military" stuff if we can put it like that.



and


Any sustained attack on a civilian population is a Crime Against Humanity. You are condoning it here below by switching and saying well, it's actually the other side's fault and well heck they had to strike back (presumably disproportionately).




Sounds like condoning it to me.




humanity has grown up and it is now rated amongst the most heinous crimes to exist. For someone who says they aren't condoning it, I find it strange you don't mention this rather large change that happened in the 20th century.

It is nothing new, it has been done since time began. Its called war m8, civillians die in wars, it may not be right, but its a fact of life.

For years we have had people over analysing issues. Your replies are the biggest crock I`ve heard yet. You need to take a look at the real world, stop reading books & open your eyes.

Originally Posted by chaos23

Have a look at the map at 1946...........it may educate you.

You seem to have forgotten to mention where you got the maps from, chaos me old mucker.......

It sounds a really unbiased and even-handed source.

JewWatch.Com

Subtitled "This Scholarly Library of Facts about Domestic & Worldwide Zionist Criminality"

[demented]

My point is this: Crimes Against Humanity aren't interested in the rights and wrongs, in the he said it/she said it, the military tactics. They are interested in the results and the results are absolutely devastating .

[Osem]

Firstly I think we should all feel for the innocent men, women and children on both sides who've been kiiled and are destined to die in this long running dispute.

It seems to me, though, that whilst the Israelis may feel they're winning the war militarily, they're losing the propaganda war. Their reaction (military and otherwise by blockade) to provocation (genuine, perceived or manufactured) seems increasingly and unnecessarily indiscriminate and if it is intended to make Israel a safer place I can only say that it's misguided. I don't think anyone in that region is any safer as a result of what's been happening - quite the reverse in fact! If Israel carries on escalating its response to attacks the whole region will sooner or later erupt into war. What's needed is for Israel to take the moral high ground, to stop indiscriminately punishing innocent men/women/children in Gaza and to act in accordance with international law.

Originally Posted by Osem

Firstly I think we should all feel for the innocent men, women and children on both sides who've been kiiled and are destined to die in this long running dispute.

It seems to me, though, that whilst the Israelis may feel they're winning the war militarily, they're losing the propaganda war. Their reaction (military and otherwise by blockade) to provocation (genuine, perceived or manufactured) seems increasingly and unnecessarily indiscriminate and if it is intended to make Israel a safer place I can only say that it's misguided. I don't think anyone in that region is any safer as a result of what's been happening - quite the reverse in fact! If Israel carries on escalating its response to attacks the whole region will sooner or later erupt into war. What's needed is for Israel to take the moral high ground, to stop indiscriminately punishing innocent men/women/children in Gaza and to act in accordance with international law.

I totally agree - Israel needs to show leadership by not (over-)reacting.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by demented

My point is this: Crimes Against Humanity aren't interested in the rights and wrongs, in the he said it/she said it, the military tactics. They are interested in the results and the results are absolutely devastating .

The results of what?? Do you actually know what your talking about???

You have twisted my post to impress upon others, your point of view. Your replies make very little sense, apart from manipulating the content to your own viewpoint.

---------- Post added at 20:37 ---------- Previous post was at 20:35 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Firstly I think we should all feel for the innocent men, women and children on both sides who've been kiiled and are destined to die in this long running dispute.

It seems to me, though, that whilst the Israelis may feel they're winning the war militarily, they're losing the propaganda war. Their reaction (military and otherwise by blockade) to provocation (genuine, perceived or manufactured) seems increasingly and unnecessarily indiscriminate and if it is intended to make Israel a safer place I can only say that it's misguided. I don't think anyone in that region is any safer as a result of what's been happening - quite the reverse in fact! If Israel carries on escalating its response to attacks the whole region will sooner or later erupt into war. What's needed is for Israel to take the moral high ground, to stop indiscriminately punishing innocent men/women/children in Gaza and to act in accordance with international law.

Good post m8.

[demented]

Originally Posted by SMG

The results of what?? Do you actually know what your talking about???

You have twisted my post to impress upon others, your point of view. Your replies make very little sense, apart from manipulating the content to your own viewpoint.

The results of these actions, of course. 250 deaths. I haven't manipulated anything. I was pointing out that the actions break international law and where you questioned it I pointed out that international law is not interested in these other things of which you speak, nor is it interested if anyone finds them a "crock of" anything. I would say it was you who manipulated things as you pretty much inverted things talking about "tactics outlawed by virtually every civilized state" and then saying that rather than an attack on a civilian area it was infact completely the other way round and was if your enemies did it from a civilian area.

What you don't like aren't my opinions as such other than interpretations of it, they are fundamental tenets of the modern world.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by demented

The results of these actions, of course. 250 deaths. I haven't manipulated anything. I was pointing out that the actions break international law and where you questioned it I pointed out that international law is not interested in these other things of which you speak, nor is it interested if anyone finds them a "crock of" anything. I would say it was you who manipulated things as you pretty much inverted things talking about "tactics outlawed by virtually every civilized state" and then saying that rather than an attack on a civilian area it was infact completely the other way round and was if your enemies did it from a civilian area.

What you don't like aren't my opinions as such other than interpretations of it, they are fundamental tenets of the modern world.

My Ars*.

"Its life Jim, but not as we know it"

Originally Posted by demented

The results of these actions, of course. 250 deaths. I haven't manipulated anything. I was pointing out that the actions break international law and where you questioned it I pointed out that international law is not interested in these other things of which you speak, nor is it interested if anyone finds them a "crock of" anything. I would say it was you who manipulated things as you pretty much inverted things talking about "tactics outlawed by virtually every civilized state" and then saying that rather than an attack on a civilian area it was infact completely the other way round and was if your enemies did it from a civilian area.

What you don't like aren't my opinions as such other than interpretations of it, they are fundamental tenets of the modern world.

And are Hamas and their followers breaching international law with the rockets, mortars, and suicide bombers?

This does not make what Israel is doing right, but surely what Hamas and others are doing is wrong as well?

btw, from the BBC article quoted earlier -
"The Egyptian foreign minister has accused Hamas of not allowing injured Palestinians to leave Gaza to seek treatment, even though much-needed medical supplies are waiting at the nearby El-Arish airport"; because there is, of course, an Egyptian-Gaza border crossing in the south of the Gaza Strip (as the Egyptians ruled the Gaza Strip until the '67 war).

[demented]

Originally Posted by SMG

My Ars*.

"Its life Jim, but not as we know it"

You may not like international law but it is there and the ideas mark a great milestone in human achievement. I am not debating this anymore as you have simply deployed straw men and ad hominems. The point of my post was to challenge your points in international law and get clarification. I think from replies from this I can see an utter contempt for it, which made me glad I raised the point.

I wish the people in the middle east peace, hopefully the incoming administration can take an interest in it akin to the Carter Administration and get things moving in the right direction.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by demented

You may not like international law but it is there and the ideas mark a great milestone in human achievement. I am not debating this anymore as you have simply deployed straw men and ad hominems. The point of my post was to challenge your points in international law and get clarification. I think from replies from this I can see an utter contempt for it, which made me glad I raised the point.

I wish the people in the middle east peace, hopefully the incoming administration can take an interest in it akin to the Carter Administration and get things moving in the right direction.

We aim to please.

Like I told you, I`m a soldier, not a politician. I dont dictate the policy, governments do. I tell you the way it is, from first hand experience.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

You seem to have forgotten to mention where you got the maps from, chaos me old mucker.......

It sounds a really unbiased and even-handed source.

JewWatch.Com

Subtitled "This Scholarly Library of Facts about Domestic & Worldwide Zionist Criminality"

Hows this one for you then? Straight from Wiki

[demented]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

And are Hamas and their followers breaching international law with the rockets, mortars, and suicide bombers?

This does not make what Israel is doing right, but surely what Hamas and others are doing is wrong as well?

btw, from the BBC article quoted earlier -
"The Egyptian foreign minister has accused Hamas of not allowing injured Palestinians to leave Gaza to seek treatment, even though much-needed medical supplies are waiting at the nearby El-Arish airport"; because there is, of course, an Egyptian-Gaza border crossing in the south of the Gaza Strip (as the Egyptians ruled the Gaza Strip until the '67 war).

Wrong and international law are not necessarily the same thing. What Hamas are doing is clearly wrong, other than in some warped, conditioned mind, one that would probably be found somewhere in well, unfortunately the middle east.

Hamas have been the government, or as documentation would describe it the de facto authority since 2006. So there may be a case to answer, they could certainly be investigated with their followers but that would be harder to gather evidence against. Pinning something on the authority when Arafat was incharge though, certainly not. So the question is whether Hamas sponsored stuff since they have been in government amounts to a widespread enough practice to be called a Crime Against Humanity. The answer is probably, no.

The other point of interest here is that the Israeli Military and some other countries round the world don't see Hamas as a legitimate government and they have no right to go round trying to change it to something else, as their intention seems to be. The civilian deaths and trying to (again) dismantle the proto-government will probably either reinforce Hamas (in which case the only winners are Hamas and the Israeli military) or some other realignment where some other political organisation that the Israeli military will also take a disliking to will take power(ish) and we can go through yet another cycle of this.