Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] - Page 778

phormwatch · 13-07-2008, 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dephormation

To quote K*nt "We're not Evil, we're the good guys here", "'I am not the Prince of Darkness". Why should anyone fear for their life?

Tinyurl disagrees:

http://www.tinyurl.com/princeofdarkness

Kursk · 13-07-2008, 13:12

This is all a bit tangential and too personal for my taste. Comments made about Mr Brandon and Mr Ertugrul are inappropriate and don't help the debate; in fact, it could become an Achilles Heel. The thread was started to discuss the concept of a technology with the potential to impinge on privacy, not to vilify anyone who came within spitting distance. Let's keep it civil and focussed or it will all go down the pan.

serial · 13-07-2008, 13:21

Hey guys, just back after a week "off the grid", heading back to page 746, to catch up, anything exciting happened?

Florence · 13-07-2008, 13:27

We didn't think of you as evil person.

Don't get me wrong doubleclick was a true opt-in formula and if I removed the cookies and didn't revist any sites using doubleclick i was no longer being watched but with Phorm regardles of if you opt in or out you will go via their profiler you only have their word that is will not be processed, a word that you have proved is dishonorable.

We again cannot delete cookies to be surfing free from observation as it is fitted inside the ISP network. The easiest way to describe it as stalking me everywhere i go over the WWW, has the ability if they decide to edit what i see to what they think i should see.

It has already been said in USA by a phorm director he sees it moving more into editing the internet sorry but his plea for his child is one child there are thousends out there that need protecting from phorm and the doctoring it will bring to the WWW.

Some say paranoia I say look at the past record of Phorm IE 121media.. Look at how they used you to gain access into Korea.. Honesty is the best policy but their is honesty and phorm's degree of honesty..

Manipulation isnt honesty anyone can say sorry after the event then continue to do the same thing to others it is only when it hits the news they start to panic which in your case they did..

I have to say that I wouldn't trust a child of mine on the internet once/if Phorm is implemented I do not wish to open my childs mind to any phorm of brainwashing. They can and will alter what people see in the browser the government in their greed fail the puiblic with this one but thye can stil save face by now implementing and improved DPS where we control our data and ISPs have no legal riught to allow third party partners access.. It will come since it is our right to decide who we give personal details to not Kent, phorm or the ISP.

You had a chance to help thios come about quicker I hope that they didn't manipulate you and now perhaps laughing at how easy it was to get this removed. Too late in many respoects since some have a copy for referrance..

Phorm are not here to make us an onymous they are here to harvest as large a database as they can to earn money for themselves, phishing is covered by the browsers 90% phishing is via emails or https which Kent says Phorm will not profile unless that is another manipulation of the truth..

What is truth in all they have said all these months and what is said to use the person to gain what they want?

You didn't answer my question you are stuck hanging off a ledge hundreds of feet in the air certain death if allowed to fall would you trust phorm staff or us if we both offered a hand to pull you up?

Rchivist · 13-07-2008, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdibrandon

Also, if you want the contents, email me here. I'm the author...

However, you guys have it all wrong. You can read my response to your comments.

You guys have a different set of issues with Phorm than I do. I simply don't like being treated like **** & felt that way when they did. HOWEVER, if what the apology explained was true, supposedly "there was a mix up with the hotel." I'll be verifying that later this week.

The other issue, they are still wrong. They still manipulated me & screwed with me when I got there in terms of the time. One of the two apologized almost as if he was pleading for his family's life -- which honestly any of you should sympathize with. It wasn't easy to forgive or rather help him more than maybe he deserved, but acting in a vindictive manner by keeping it up despite the profuse apologies...would that made me a better person? Again, I'm complaining about different issues.

You guys have a different agenda...please understand that. And I don't think it was any of you guys, but the last comment before I replied was simply uncalled for. Whomever posted "anonymous" and started to call me names was truly in poor taste. I truly hope it wasn't anybody from here...

If I receive money, I will tell you guys...but that still doesn't excuse anything. I forgave on the thought that I didn't want his daughter wondering what was happening to Dad...maybe my heart bleeds a little too much, but again, that's why I think I'm better...at least I'll sleep better at night.

---------- Post added at 10:02 ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 ----------

I'll verify it. I'm the author...

I'll stake my life on it, but as shown in the other post, I deactivated it for now. I did so because the apology I got over this weekend seemed reasonable for now. I did not promise to "keep it down" if I find otherwise though.

However, please note when you guys comment about situations in a negative manner, it really does look like you are the persecutors and not the victims. At first, I accepted your comments simply because I was angry, but rational people read into constructive criticism and not blatant baseless attacks...I think I've read some relatively fair comments so far, but there are definitely lots of comments that are more emotional that people give less weight.

Just my 2 cents...

(esp. when someone calls others names without even knowing the facts)

Just to clarify - I've personally put NO comments on your blog site. Only posts here and on BT Beta Forums - both in my real name. I'm not sure what the "calls others names" refers to so I won't get into that. If there is anything I have posted about your blog that you have an issue with, then do PM me and I will be happy to apologise or retract. At the time I posted here and on the BT forums I could only see a couple of comments on your blog and I did not refer to them in my posts, or add to them.

One of the issues in the debate here is about trust. Phorm has a past as 121Media, and their trustworthiness is a major factor. They are asking legislators and ISP users to trust them not to abuse their incredible prvileged position as a "man in the middle" of the internet, with secret unvetted software at the basic infrastructure level of our ISP network. Issues about how they behave, whether they tell untruths, deliver on promises, abuse people, other companies, legislators - are all relevant to our debate. We are hoping that they will never actually be allowed to attain that priveliged access to the infrastructure because they have repe4atedly show that they can't and shouldn't be trusted with such responsibility, and what they are promoting in their Webwise product is illegal anyway in the UK, and coming under increasing legal scrutiny in the USA as being illegal there too.

One can only speculate - but I wonder if Phorm had not been in the delicate position that they are in at the moment, here in the UK, whether they would have responded so promptly to the publication and dissemination of your blog. Are they thinking about YOU or about their business reputation falling even further than it already has? Only they can answer that, and they are not good at answering questions honestly.

Blogs are written to be noticed. I'm sorry you had the distressing situation - but it was on a blog on the internet - and these days, anything with Phorm's name on it, is going to go viral in a day or so, because people are actively searching for news about Phorm. We search because we don't trust either them or our ISP's, and we need to know what they are up to as early as possible - because they operate covertly - they do not tell us in advance - if they do tell us then it is a PR spun story, with only a casual relationship with actual truth. Because of your blog, we have some information about their supposed plans for South Korea, and we also have a story that is entirely consistent with what we already know about the ethical and behavioural standards of the company.

You had personally distressing treatment from Phorm in South Korea - and that must have been nasty - but hundreds of thousands of us over here have also been abused by them, in a more covert fashion - they've been abusing our personal data, and our intellectual property, and they have done it initially in a covert underhand deceitful way (compatible with their previous behaviour as 121Media where they seem to have had "covert" as their middle name) - and then more arrogantly and abusively, as the public spotlight swung onto them - and they moved into denigrating us as scaremongers and ill informed nerds. As the legislators started to question them they began to spin and dissemble, and put out misleading and fairly puerile PR. They have every intention of continuing to abuse us in this way, unless we can stop them. Key campaigners here have had personal experience of the kind of arrogance and rudeness shown to you, when they have met and had dealings with the CEO of Phorm so the VP's are only following the model already demonstrated by their CEO.

So thank you for letting us know how they behaved in your situation. You may feel it is a "different" issue - but from this side of the pond it feels like the very same rather arrogant and underhand Phorm we know and dislike and distrust. Believe us - as far as we can determine - the whole company has a history of functioning in a covert way and without much respect for individuals or the general public.

Best wishes - I hope you are properly compensated for your time and trouble and distress. But do let us know how Phorm do, in keepiing their promises. We have a growing list of broken promises over here. I hope their promises to you don't end up being added to it.

popper · 13-07-2008, 16:22

http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/Jer...ick.4283424.jp

Florence · 13-07-2008, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by popper

http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/Jer...ick.4283424.jp

What is needed is what the Earl of Northesk says the DPA needs.

Quote from the recording in the house of Lords curtesey of Alex.

Quote:

Fundamentally what should now be happening is the DPA should be recast one of the major problems that exist at the moment is that there are certainly three if not more subsets of data interests within legistrative terms. The government, the commercial sector and the individual. What the DPA should do is a matter of course is give the prima seed to the individual citizen and that is where the slippage has acurd. That is the most urgent thing that needs to be done. Recasting of the DPA in order that primacy of data interests of the individual citizen takes presidence over government and commercial sector.

Have to agree it is time we as the data owners are allowed to say who can and cannot use our data.

madslug · 13-07-2008, 16:45

One thing that no one has mentioned about this Korean story - this is our first chance of trying to catch any technical data on the current phorming scripts.

Anyone in Korea able to run some tests on their connections and let us see the results here?

Any info on browser redirects - urls the browser is sent to and which redirect sets which phorm/webwise/site cookie and contents thereof will be a most useful addition to our mean defences.

End of plea for help from all Koreans.

Isn't it amazing: Phorm come to the UK and people start to get fired because of their response to Phorm and its actions. Websites loss their integrity because the communication between website and visitor is no longer confidential. ISP customers start to wonder if visiting the internet is worth the risk.

Phorm goes to USA and wiretapping (in general) hits the news.

It sounds like Koreans begin to suffer the same fate. Welcome to the fight.

phormwatch · 13-07-2008, 17:30

Brandon

Sir,

No one can fault you for wanting to be treated fairly, nor for treating other people fairly. It is admirable that you thought of one of Phorm employee's daughter when considering whether to take the post down. However, with much respect, I do think you're being a little bit naive on this issue.

Firstly, I seriously doubt that anybody's job would be on the line because of what happened. Secondly, it's great that you received an apology from Phorm, but I ask you to seriously consider their motive for apologising. Can you honestly say it is because they were concerned about the way they treated you, or do you think, perhaps, it had a lot to do with preserving their business reputation?

If you don't know much about Phorm, or its history, then that may not be an easy question to answer. Many of us in the on-line community have had extensive dealings with Phorm and its army of PR henchmen. For most of us, we would definitely say it is the latter rather than the former.

Remember, this is the same company which, along with BT, carried out covert trials of its spyware technology on hundreds of thousands of broadband users without their consent. It is the same company which has repeatedly tried to obfuscated the issues and 'manage' the backlash from the on-line community by hiring no less than five PR firms.

I'm sorry that you have been offended by some of the posts on your blog. Many of us feel very passionate about this issue. Please consider that while you were concerned about the welfare of the daughter of an employee of Phorm, many of us are equally concerned about the damage that this company is doing to people's confidence in their on-line privacy and security.

If you would like to understand more about why so many people are upset about this company and their spyware technology, you could do worse than start with the Wikipedia entry on Phorm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorm

I would then suggest you have a look at this:

http://www.phonecallsuk.co.uk/bt-webwise.html

'Webwise' is the named brand of the Phorm spyware technology which BT hope to implement.

Again, I am sorry if anyone has offended you. I hope that you will investigate Phorm in more depth and come to your own conclusions. We think the facts speak for themselves.

In my opinion, this is not a company to be trusted by any means.

Privacy_Matters · 13-07-2008, 17:37

ok guys - its getting close to the AGM, so now for a suggestion

Any of you attending the AGM, check your Shareholders Right, and see if you can initiate a Vote of No Confidence in BT's Board during the AGM.

This will be probably the biggest statement you can make.

cdibrandon · 13-07-2008, 17:47

News flash Wildie -- your case to bash these guys just continues to get worse in my book. I'm not the person you should be attacking. I confirmed and repeated that all I did was remove or inactivate (with the chance of activating again -- but it's getting smaller and smaller with you guys getting on my back) a post that proved I was wronged.

The fact that the cache results of the post are still available online for your continued bashing, the fact that hundreds have already read the post and the fact that the guys are still in jeopardy with their own company doesn't go away after I posted that harsh set of criticisms against them -- so in essence I supported your cause already & you should be happy with it -- I did it for personal reasons, but it actually helped your cause which I never volunteered to be a part of.

Wildie and the others who really want to complain to me & get on my back -- you're making yourselves look worse & definitely not making the case for putting the post back up.

Florence was the closest to being civil & I appreciate her post, but come on...pick on the people you originally were picking on.

Like I said, I can understand your claims & problems, but be a little more tasteful in your criticisms & who you direct them to...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildie

news flash cdibradon, think my 5 kids how happy they are surfing away knowing they can do it without anyone intercepting their data and profiling them and no ad`s served and no sale of their data, is it fair they should suffer cos of greedy sods who think they can do what they like with other peoples data and make money, well my kids wont be happy surfing away if isp`s are allowed to to use dpi kit for that, they be banned from the internet till they old enough to give legal consent.

---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------

Thank you Kursk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kursk

This is all a bit tangential and too personal for my taste. Comments made about Mr Brandon and Mr Ertugrul are inappropriate and don't help the debate; in fact, it could become an Achilles Heel. The thread was started to discuss the concept of a technology with the potential to impinge on privacy, not to vilify anyone who came within spitting distance. Let's keep it civil and focussed or it will all go down the pan.

madslug · 13-07-2008, 17:49

Without knowing anything about BT's constitution, it is unlikely that one person attending and representing a very small majority of shares will be able to have their voice heard about something as important as a Vote of No Confidence. A block of 10% or more may have a chance. Any such proposal would also need to be notified to all the shareholders before such vote was considered.

It is a nice thought though.

Don't forget, what can be done. There will be some Directors retiring by rotation and seeking re-elections. Shareholders may be able to do something here. Proxy votes will then need to be counted, etc.

Just getting something into the Minutes could be interesting.

cdibrandon · 13-07-2008, 17:51

Your comments are heeded phormwatch. I can respect your comments & I appreciate you backing it up with a little education and logic. I think you may have seen my last few posts - again, it was an issue I personally & directly had with the two sales guys that approached me & their specific actions this past week. I can't say much else because I don't know if I can even join the cause until they come here in full force -- if they do, I may consider it later.

Simply put -- taking advantage of old connections isn't fair or proper in my book. They also made a rough week even more painful & exhausting.

Nevertheless, I respect your concerns & like I've mentioned, I may activate it again. Only one of the two actually apologized. The other one expects me to call him? If I don't get a call from him and I have enough time, I may reconsider directing the criticisms his way.

They've both claimed to make it right, but now I don't know if honestly, I should take their money to compensate for my ills. To be frank, I would feel like a hypocrite even though I'm the loser in either case. Not sure...

Quote:

Originally Posted by phormwatch

Brandon

Sir,

No one can fault you for wanting to be treated fairly, nor for treating other people fairly. It is admirable that you thought of one of Phorm employee's daughter when considering whether to take the post down. However, with much respect, I do think you're being a little bit naive on this issue.

Firstly, I seriously doubt that anybody's job would be on the line because of what happened. Secondly, it's great that you received an apology from Phorm, but I ask you to seriously consider their motive for apologising. Can you honestly say it is because they were concerned about the way they treated you, or do you think, perhaps, it had a lot to do with preserving their business reputation?

If you don't know much about Phorm, or its history, then that may not be an easy question to answer. Many of us in the on-line community have had extensive dealings with Phorm and its army of PR henchmen. For most of us, we would definitely say it is the latter rather than the former.

Remember, this is the same company which, along with BT, carried out covert trials of its spyware technology on hundreds of thousands of broadband users without their consent. It is the same company which has repeatedly tried to obfuscated the issues and 'manage' the backlash from the on-line community by hiring no less than five PR firms.

I'm sorry that you have been offended by some of the posts on your blog. Many of us feel very passionate about this issue. Please consider that while you were concerned about the welfare of the daughter of an employee of Phorm, many of us are equally concerned about the damage that this company is doing to people's confidence in their on-line privacy and security.

If you would like to understand more about why so many people are upset about this company and their spyware technology, you could do worse than start with the Wikipedia entry on Phorm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorm

I would then suggest you have a look at this:

http://www.phonecallsuk.co.uk/bt-webwise.html

'Webwise' is the named brand of the Phorm spyware technology which BT hope to implement.

Again, I am sorry if anyone has offended you. I hope that you will investigate Phorm in more depth and come to your own conclusions. We think the facts speak for themselves.

In my opinion, this is not a company to be trusted by any means.

Privacy_Matters · 13-07-2008, 17:56

I agree Mad

But theres no harm in trying. If a Vote of No Confidence can't be held, then there will be other ways...

... Directly questioning the viability of the investment to date in regards of Phorm
... Questioning the increase of wages and Dividends for the Board when they are responsible for the Illegal Trials - and balance this with the potential damage to BT as a Company

Just one failed re-election, after a reference to Phorm will be a massive success, and with the Press and Financial experts at the AGM - this will send a huge message, and may well push the Phorm fiasco into Mainstream Media and keep it there.

cdibrandon · 13-07-2008, 17:59

OK folks, I'm going to deny comments like this. Just a heads up...

I'm a bit frustrated with these baseless attacks that don't understand the situation. I may have forgiven one of the two & thus deactivated the post, but I think I've explained myself enough as to why. I hope you can help your supporters understand how to deal with situations politically.

New comment on your post #771 "To retract or not to retract a post..."
Author : anonymous ([Moderator Edit])
E-mail : [Moderator Edit]
URL : http://badphorm.co.uk
Whois : [Moderator Edit]
Comment:
Stop blubbing Brandon we can see through those crocodile tears. The Phorm idiots played you for a fool and you danced their tune. The reason why some of us aren't going to be your best friend and cry a river for you is because you nearly got into bed with those sneaky [Moderator Edit] with your keenness to scramble on board HMS PhromTitanic (and we have the cached posts now to analyse despite your attempts to scupper that really useful information -- to which I say "thank you").

Phorm is an evil piece of work Brendon, you should spend some time reading what ordinary people think about having their private communications spy upon and monetised for the benefit of a handful of greedy marketing and telcom execs - And 'YOU' could have been part of that [Moderator Edit] Brendon, count yourself lucky you only got shafted for travel and hotel expenses because we over here in the UK might have to live with the consequences of your ex-marketing buddies shafting handiwork for years to come.

[Moderator Edit (Rob M): Please see my comments below]