Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Originally Posted by phormwatch

So... no suggestions for publicising the upcoming Protest?

Random thought... Is there a list somewhere/anywhere of "Computer Interest Groups"? You know the sort of thing - meet every so often in a local school/church hall.

Or, those computer trade shows? They tend to be organised by one or two people or small a committee, then show up every 3 or 4 weeks around here. Don't know how to contact though.

What about yesterday's papers - the Daily Mail I think I saw on Sky News as I walked into work, had a story about data/privacy on the front page... maybe they would do a follow up on Monday/Tuesday (doubt it's front page stuff but could be a lever to pull...?)

Hank

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:45 ----------

Another more useful/relevant idea perhaps:

Alexander, you might be planning to already...

I think Alexander or another of us could do a piece about the EoN meeting, wat we thought, the best bits of the EoN's comments, pick out the best laymens' questions answered... Obviously would need (or would it?) the OK of the EoN himself, and release it as a PR with the story including the prompt for London.

That's my best offer of promotion for the event. Perhaps it could get a mention in the press?

Hank

[pseudonym]

Originally Posted by Dephormation

Just looking at the text of Richard Claytons analysis... it is very confusing.

It talks about a 'webwise' labelled cookie for the UID. Does that mean the cookie is named webwise, or the name is chosen by Webwise?

And when it talks about the method used to copy the 'OPTED_OUT' value, it says "If the user has set a cookie within the webwise.net domain indicating that they do not wish to be tracked, then this preference setting will be copied (by the method already outlined) into the cookies created for all other domains. That is, the cookie for these domains will have a generic "OPTED OUT" value and there will be no UID".

Is that name "OPTED_OUT" and value "YES" per the webwise domain??

My interpretation was that the name will either be, or contain "webwise" and the value will be a base64 encode uid number if you are opted in or the value "OPTED_OUT".

eg

webwise=SYGGfXWiQMuawIuR0qMJxw||

or

webwise=OPTED_OUT

I wasn't 100% sure the name would be "webwise" and that phorm wouldn't change it, so I coded my extension to detect the phorged cookie and its name using a regular expression that looks for a phorm UID in the set-cookie after the redirect from webwise.net occurs, so even if it is not "webwise" it should still work.

This whole thing is such a technical shambles. See para 33 - if you opt out, your UID is sprayed across every site you ever visited. Your visits to those sites would still be profiled, even though you thought you'd opted out, while the copied UID cookies persisted.



We must stop this cack every being launched. It is cack. Utter utter utter cack.

Indeed, none the less the Phorm PR team reckoned they'd convince Tim it's-mine-you-can't-have-it Burners-Lee it was a good thing once they'd explained it to him - I'd love to hear what he would have said in response!

Another problem with it, having a phorged cookie sent when you visit sites using HTTPS is going to break some sites with no obvious cause to the end-user.

BT might even need to find another site for online AGM voting as www.sharevote.co.uk sent me to an error page when I tried sending it a fake webwise cookie.

[Rchivist]

The South Korean hotel room scandal continues to develop. The original post is now withdrawn, as "apologies and promises to make this right" have been flying around. The explanation is here
http://therealsouthkorea.wordpress.c...etract-a-post/

I guess Phorm leaned on him with whatever Phorm of persuasion seemed most appropriate.

Word of advice for anyone attending a Phorm job interview - check they've paid the hotel bill in advance before you buy any travel tickets.

Did anyone copy the blog page?

Google cache of the original is here
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

[madslug]

Originally Posted by rryles

I probably won't be able to do any more transcription until early next week. Here's what I've done so far. (File is plain text but uses Unix style line endings - WordPad should be able to open it but Notepad will probably make a mess of it)

rryles

If you are not able to do any more for now, I will see what I can do over the next couple of evenings to complete the missing 20 minutes.

If I can work out how to upload the file I have done, I will add it here. Text format and I think it should not corrupt the font and line feeds for MSWindows users.

[madslug]

Originally Posted by R Jones

The South Korean hotel room scandal continues to develop. The original post is now withdrawn, as "apologies and promises to make this right" have been flying around. The explanation is here
http://therealsouthkorea.wordpress.c...etract-a-post/

<snip>

Did anyone copy the blog page?

WayBackMachine? Unfortunately, nothing there .

[Florence]

I still have the page open on my pc must have read it and went back to the Earls transcript.

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by R Jones

The South Korean hotel room scandal continues to develop. The original post is now withdrawn, as "apologies and promises to make this right" have been flying around. The explanation is here
http://therealsouthkorea.wordpress.c...etract-a-post/

I guess Phorm leaned on him with whatever Phorm of persuasion seemed most appropriate.

Word of advice for anyone attending a Phorm job interview - check they've paid the hotel bill in advance before you buy any travel tickets.

Did anyone copy the blog page?

Google cache of the original is here
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

I've saved the google cache version to disk from Firefox as "Web page complete". So if anyone wants it, let me know by PM.

[oblonsky]

Originally Posted by Hank

Random thought... Is there a list somewhere/anywhere of "Computer Interest Groups"? You know the sort of thing - meet every so often in a local school/church hall.

...

Hank

Try local Linux User Groups. Mine is SLUG (Surrey Linux User's Group).

O.

[SimonHickling]

Just been investigating the position of web site owners vis-a-vis copyright in the Phorm model, and came across this from outlaw.com The UK's E-commerce Regulations. An interesting read on the whole but the part on caching was particularly interesting. I don't know if any of this has been superseded since the article was last updated.

The part on caching wrt ISPs includes this little gem

Further, the service provider must not modify the information and must comply with all access conditions imposed with regard to the site. This in itself means that it may be difficult to fall within this exception.

For example, many website copyright notices provide that the information may not be stored in an electronic retrieval system – which, on the face of it, precludes being cached by ISPs for the provision of a more efficient service. Obviously, whilst it will not be in most websites' interests to prevent ISPs from doing this, it nonetheless makes it difficult for the ISP to have complied with the strict obligations under the regulation. For an example of how to address this, see OUT-LAW's copyright notice.

The date of last update is stated as December 2006 which means that BT must surely have fallen foul of this [interpretation] during their 2006 trials where they did in fact change the content. This also means (if I read it correctly) that they must comply with sites which state words to the effect of "I don't want to be analysed."

Also of interest

No obligation to monitor

The E-commerce Directive states that Member States must not impose a general obligation on service providers to monitor the information which they transmit or store. It is normally accepted that if you do monitor the content on your servers then you are at greater risk as you will be treated as a publisher of that information.

Mere conduit protection is gone. I'd be interested to know if anyone was "phormed" in the trials whilst accessing torrent sites for copyright material. If so then BT must have had enough strikes to keep them off the net for many a year.

As the saying goes, "I am not a lawyer", but the people at outlaw.com are. My interpretation my be wrong, judge for yourselves.

Simon

[Wildie]

narr wont happen and we all know why sadly.

[cdibrandon]

Also, if you want the contents, email me here. I'm the author...

However, you guys have it all wrong. You can read my response to your comments.

You guys have a different set of issues with Phorm than I do. I simply don't like being treated like **** & felt that way when they did. HOWEVER, if what the apology explained was true, supposedly "there was a mix up with the hotel." I'll be verifying that later this week.

The other issue, they are still wrong. They still manipulated me & screwed with me when I got there in terms of the time. One of the two apologized almost as if he was pleading for his family's life -- which honestly any of you should sympathize with. It wasn't easy to forgive or rather help him more than maybe he deserved, but acting in a vindictive manner by keeping it up despite the profuse apologies...would that made me a better person? Again, I'm complaining about different issues.

You guys have a different agenda...please understand that. And I don't think it was any of you guys, but the last comment before I replied was simply uncalled for. Whomever posted "anonymous" and started to call me names was truly in poor taste. I truly hope it wasn't anybody from here...

If I receive money, I will tell you guys...but that still doesn't excuse anything. I forgave on the thought that I didn't want his daughter wondering what was happening to Dad...maybe my heart bleeds a little too much, but again, that's why I think I'm better...at least I'll sleep better at night.

Originally Posted by R Jones

I've saved the google cache version to disk from Firefox as "Web page complete". So if anyone wants it, let me know by PM.

---------- Post added at 10:02 ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 ----------

I'll verify it. I'm the author...

I'll stake my life on it, but as shown in the other post, I deactivated it for now. I did so because the apology I got over this weekend seemed reasonable for now. I did not promise to "keep it down" if I find otherwise though.

However, please note when you guys comment about situations in a negative manner, it really does look like you are the persecutors and not the victims. At first, I accepted your comments simply because I was angry, but rational people read into constructive criticism and not blatant baseless attacks...I think I've read some relatively fair comments so far, but there are definitely lots of comments that are more emotional that people give less weight.

Just my 2 cents...

(esp. when someone calls others names without even knowing the facts)

Originally Posted by R Jones

From Baphorm - a blog about what Phorm appear to get up to in South Korea. It is an email thread relating the tale of someone allegedly a Phorm VP, exploiting old Doubleclick contacts in S Korea to garner some contacts/intro's in S Korea so they could allegedly do some 4-6 week trials of their technology. The guy gets strung along, promised a paid hotel room in Seoul for a face-toface meeting - spends time and money going to Seoul, but Phorm allegedly never pay for the hotel room and never turn up. Hotel boot him out.

This is certainly compatible with the Phorm we know.
http://therealsouthkorea.wordpress.c...ok-not-to-use/

Enjoy. Of course - I cannot verify this. It may not be true. Decide for yourself.

If it is true, is this the sort of company BT want to keep?

---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 ----------



In addition- they repeat the assertion that no one suffered significant harm - which Stephen Mainwaring would disagree with, and they know that.

[Dephormation]

Originally Posted by cdibrandon

Also, if you want the contents, email me here. I'm the author...
However, you guys have it all wrong. You can read my response to your comments.

Important to recognise, we are not all one. If you've got a concern with a particular individual perhaps you could address them?

Originally Posted by cdibrandon

You guys have a different set of issues with Phorm than I do. I simply don't like being treated like **** & felt that way when they did. HOWEVER, if what the apology explained was true, supposedly "there was a mix up with the hotel." I'll be verifying that later this week.

I think you'll find many people consider they have been treated like **** by Phorm. Its a pattern that keeps repeating itself.

Originally Posted by cdibrandon

The other issue, they are still wrong. They still manipulated me & screwed with me when I got there in terms of the time. One of the two apologized almost as if he was pleading for his family's life -- which honestly any of you should sympathize with.

To quote K*nt "We're not Evil, we're the good guys here", "'I am not the Prince of Darkness". Why should anyone fear for their life?

From The Register...

Originally Posted by cdibrandon

It wasn't easy to forgive or rather help him more than maybe he deserved, but acting in a vindictive manner by keeping it up despite the profuse apologies...would that made me a better person? Again, I'm complaining about different issues.

If you felt you'd been given an adequate apology, you did the right thing.

Originally Posted by cdibrandon

You guys have a different agenda...please understand that. And I don't think it was any of you guys, but the last comment before I replied was simply uncalled for. Whomever posted "anonymous" and started to call me names was truly in poor taste. I truly hope it wasn't anybody from here...

If I receive money, I will tell you guys...but that still doesn't excuse anything. I forgave on the thought that I didn't want his daughter wondering what was happening to Dad...maybe my heart bleeds a little too much, but again, that's why I think I'm better...at least I'll sleep better at night.

Are you suggesting people employed by Phorm fear for their lives?

Should we fear for our lives too do you think? (That's not a rhetorical question btw!).

PS almost forgot to add

[Florence]

Originally Posted by cdibrandon

Also, if you want the contents, email me here. I'm the author...

However, you guys have it all wrong. You can read my response to your comments.

You guys have a different set of issues with Phorm than I do. I simply don't like being treated like **** & felt that way when they did. HOWEVER, if what the apology explained was true, supposedly "there was a mix up with the hotel." I'll be verifying that later this week.

The other issue, they are still wrong. They still manipulated me & screwed with me when I got there in terms of the time. One of the two apologized almost as if he was pleading for his family's life -- which honestly any of you should sympathize with. It wasn't easy to forgive or rather help him more than maybe he deserved, but acting in a vindictive manner by keeping it up despite the profuse apologies...would that made me a better person? Again, I'm complaining about different issues.

You guys have a different agenda...please understand that. And I don't think it was any of you guys, but the last comment before I replied was simply uncalled for. Whomever posted "anonymous" and started to call me names was truly in poor taste. I truly hope it wasn't anybody from here...

If I receive money, I will tell you guys...but that still doesn't excuse anything. I forgave on the thought that I didn't want his daughter wondering what was happening to Dad...maybe my heart bleeds a little too much, but again, that's why I think I'm better...at least I'll sleep better at night.





---------- Post added at 10:02 ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 ----------

I'll verify it. I'm the author...

I'll stake my life on it, but as shown in the other post, I deactivated it for now. I did so because the apology I got over this weekend seemed reasonable for now. I did not promise to "keep it down" if I find otherwise though.

However, please note when you guys comment about situations in a negative manner, it really does look like you are the persecutors and not the victims. At first, I accepted your comments simply because I was angry, but rational people read into constructive criticism and not blatant baseless attacks...I think I've read some relatively fair comments so far, but there are definitely lots of comments that are more emotional that people give less weight.

Just my 2 cents...

(esp. when someone calls others names without even knowing the facts)

Welcome to the forum, I did post on the last one but I always use my name posting as anon isn't my style...


I can see your side of this sadly I still see you as being used, they used you in Korea, right now their shareholders are watching the floor fall out from underneath them. Phorm manipulate all the time take part quotes that are good and selectively avoid the negative even if linked in the same paragraph.

What you put up would have caused more companies to be scepticle of them he wasn't pleeding for himself it was more for the company as your daming evidance that the use people for their own gain.

Something we have said all along there isnt that much difference look at it this way the patent on this can go so far that nothing on your PC is safe if and I say if the programmer decides to change the get commands.

Now look at what thye did to you think about it can you trust them to be on the ISP network and keep thier word they will not dig deaper into your system to gather personal data?
Could you trust them to pay you your commission earned pimping your customers?


Many businessses are run on trust if you cannot trust them how can you work with them, allow them access to your customers?

See your events showed they promise but do not deliver that is the only reason for the begging you had shown them for what they are users.. plain and simple.

I do have a copy saved to my pc strange really since I was transcritpting the chat with the Earl of Northesk so didn't read it all so the page was still in the browser by the time i was going to reply I had already seen you had removed it.

I shouldn't hold my breath for anything from them they are takers and users about to change the way the WWW works and dont get it wrong if they get into the networks world wide they can hold every country to ransome, they can change content we see on the screen from the page we requested..

Would you trust your life to them if you were hanging off a ledge hundreds of feet up and only them to keep you alive?

I will leave you to ponder on that one have fun.

[cdibrandon]

Please understand Florence et al, but I don't know as much as you all regarding the issue. I used to work for Doubleclick, but I didn't see myself as an evil person...just someone who needed a paycheck to survive in NYC with my family at the time. I was in Engineering QA'ing our products.

While I understand the sales folks and upper management have a bit more that they are preaching, the point still is that my post was about inappropriate business practices towards little ole me. I didn't know I would go viral and get wrapped up in a cause that you all are working on. I respect your comments & your thoughts, but I don't want to be threatened or criticized for simply deactivating and taking my time in thinking this through.

I had a hard time in posting the first post about their behavior. It took me a solid 2+ hours to recollect all the emails & recount step by step what happened. I was angry from a standpoint that they just simply did something wrong as far as calling, but I do acknowledge they have other people to talk to. I just wish they would of made it VERY CLEAR that I was not on the priority list -- which up through today, I'm still confused a little frustrated.

I didn't get all the answers I wanted from the apology, but again, I thought of his daughter when he was making a plea...not Phorm. I may still put it back up, again, if any of the claims are wrong or still not as true as I feel they may or may not be. I'm still a little fuming over the whole thing, but I don't want to be responsible for someone being depressed if it truly was a mistake and potentially a family. That's all...

Anyway, onward...

Originally Posted by Florence

Welcome to the forum, I did post on the last one but I always use my name posting as anon isn't my style...


I can see your side of this sadly I still see you as being used, they used you in Korea, right now their shareholders are watching the floor fall out from underneath them. Phorm manipulate all the time take part quotes that are good and selectively avoid the negative even if linked in the same paragraph.

What you put up would have caused more companies to be scepticle of them he wasn't pleeding for himself it was more for the company as your daming evidance that the use people for their own gain.

Something we have said all along there isnt that much difference look at it this way the patent on this can go so far that nothing on your PC is safe if and I say if the programmer decides to change the get commands.

Now look at what thye did to you think about it can you trust them to be on the ISP network and keep thier word they will not dig deaper into your system to gather personal data?
Could you trust them to pay you your commission earned pimping your customers?


Many businessses are run on trust if you cannot trust them how can you work with them, allow them access to your customers?

See your events showed they promise but do not deliver that is the only reason for the begging you had shown them for what they are users.. plain and simple.

I do have a copy saved to my pc strange really since I was transcritpting the chat with the Earl of Northesk so didn't read it all so the page was still in the browser by the time i was going to reply I had already seen you had removed it.

I shouldn't hold my breath for anything from them they are takers and users about to change the way the WWW works and dont get it wrong if they get into the networks world wide they can hold every country to ransome, they can change content we see on the screen from the page we requested..

Would you trust your life to them if you were hanging off a ledge hundreds of feet up and only them to keep you alive?

I will leave you to ponder on that one have fun.

[Wildie]

news flash cdibradon, think my 5 kids how happy they are surfing away knowing they can do it without anyone intercepting their data and profiling them and no ad`s served and no sale of their data, is it fair they should suffer cos of greedy sods who think they can do what they like with other peoples data and make money, well my kids wont be happy surfing away if isp`s are allowed to to use dpi kit for that, they be banned from the internet till they old enough to give legal consent.