Students Rioting in London.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Masque

Are you really for real as what you are saying is that basically you condone the out of control violence used by the protesters which went over the top to any normal minded person.

Okay lets break this down.

Its violence by SOME protesters, not THE protesters. Labels again
No I condemn (most of) the violence by them, but support the majority as a whole.

I would fully condone the use of Baton Rounds and Water Cannon to control such crowds if and when required and up to now they have been lucky that the police can only use horses to try and control the rabble.

I don't mind what they do, just as long as the police don't escalate the anger of the protesters any more than they need to. I don't want to see a whole generation become radicalised, and that's exactly what is happening now.

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 ----------

Originally Posted by Derek

Personally I think we should avoid the armchair experts who think because other countries are more radical and violent we don't know what a riot is and go with the current legal definition ( In England anyway )



I'd say the scenes we have seen count as a riot so we can move on.[COLOR="Silver"]

Thank you for illustrating my point so eloquently. You've taken grey, made it black, and you've suggested we now assume it's black and base more assumptions on the new black classification. People have been hanged based upon such medieval notions. In the 21st century however, this is dissapointing.

Now Mr Expert, so instead of 1% of trouble makers creating a scene - tell us what you call 20,000 rioters ? A civil war?

But there aren't 20,000 rioters, so I call it a figment of your imagination.....

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Hugh

btw, fyi, here are some pictures of a police van being "rocked"...

Err..no way Hugh, those pictures are of a van being vandalised by some "yoofs" who don't even look like student protesters.

This is a van being rocked :
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]
As I mentioned earlier, it was rocked but that isn't tantamount to "police vans" (note the plural) being tipped over as was stated earlier.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

No I don't want to see that for real, but I do wish some people could at least imagine what it would look like.

I don't need to imagine, I have seen plenty in Londonderry and Belfast, Been involved in plenty in Londonderry and Belfast, Had to fire plastic bullets in one of those and fired tear gas as well.

So yes i KNOW what a riot is like. I know what its like to be on the receiving end of petrol bombs, Stones, Bricks and all the other crap that is thrown at you. I know what its like to have some hooligan spitting in you face, Swearing at you, Trying to stab a length of wood in you.

I just hope those that start one in London know what one is and what its like if the police use everything at there disposal to stop it. There will be unfortunately people on both sides hurt. I just hope those that are looking forward to the riots and are planing these riots are and will be able to live with injuries that people are going to get on both sides

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Err..no way Hugh, those pictures are of a van being vandalised by some "yoofs" who don't even look like student protesters.

This is a van being rocked :

As I mentioned earlier, it was rocked but that isn't tantamount to "police vans" (note the plural) being tipped over as was stated earlier.

a) I am impressed that you can tell the difference between student protestors and "yoofs", since most students are, in fact, "yoofs" (strange that all police are violent fascist barstewards, but you have the wherewithal to differentiate between young people, even when their faces are completely hidden (as they were in my earlier post).
b) it's the same police van.....
c) your follicles appear to suffer from extreme splitting.... is it ok that one police van is vandalised, and only becomes a problem when more than one police van is tipped over?

And before you go down your black/white route again, I do not think that all student protesters are violent, just a small minority - but that small minority damaged the reputation of the rest, just like the small minority of police who behave badly taint the rest of the force (but as I do not believe in sweeping generalisations, I believe in both cases it is a small minority).

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Err..no way Hugh, those pictures are of a van being vandalised by some "yoofs" who don't even look like student protesters.

This is a van being rocked :

As I mentioned earlier, it was rocked but that isn't tantamount to "police vans" (note the plural) being tipped over as was stated earlier.

So what is the difference between a student protester and a hooligan protester. Do they have different clothing or something else.

So in that picture who is who, Might be the police need the info so they can instantly id them like you have.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:41 ----------

Originally Posted by Masque

I would fully condone the use of Baton Rounds and Water Cannon to control such crowds if and when required and up to now they have been lucky that the police can only use horses to try and control the rabble.

Same here well said

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Sirius

So what is the difference between a student protester and a hooligan protester. Do they have different clothing or something else.

So in that picture who is who, Might be the police need the info so they can instantly id them like you have.

Then we could say that hoodie is a rioter but wait a minute that hoodie over there is just keeping warm.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Hugh

a) I am impressed that you can tell the difference between student protestors and "yoofs", since most students are, in fact, "yoofs" (strange that all police are violent fascist barstewards, but you have the wherewithal to differentiate between young people, even when their faces are completely hidden (as they were in my earlier post).

Irrelevant. My earlier post was aimed at Masque's comment about multiple police vans being tipped over, when in fact it was an exaggeration as none were.

b) it's the same police van.....

Yes from reading up on this, I do believe it is the same van. The one that was deliberately left as bait in the protester "kettle" in the November demo.

c) your follicles appear to suffer from extreme splitting.... is it ok that one police van is vandalised, and only becomes a problem when more than one police van is tipped over?

What utter nonsense. When did I say it was okay to vandalise a van? Was it not you who said "assumptions are the mother of all frakk-ups?"
Why is is okay for you to make all manner of assumptions in order to validate the indefensible, but if anyone else appears to do it then it's deemed "the mother of all frakk-ups" ?

Just because its just as bad to vandalise a van as it is to tip one over, does not excuse your camp from deliberately spreading misinformation dictating that multiple police vans were tipped over, when in fact it was one that that vandalised. If one is to exaggerate, why stop at tipped over? Why not make the fairy tales much more colourful and add in some explosions and fatalities? Maybe its just me, but I'd much rather we stick to facts than fantastical misinterpretations of what actually happened, just saying...

And before you go down your black/white route again, I do not think that all student protesters are violent, just a small minority - but that small minority damaged the reputation of the rest, just like the small minority of police who behave badly taint the rest of the force (but as I do not believe in sweeping generalisations, I believe in both cases it is a small minority).

Well its good that you accept that 99% of students who were clearly seen to be walking calmly with their placards weren't just thugs in disguise pretending to be peaceful protesters. Now we are beginning to stick with the facts, I hope this is a sign of things to come in this discussion.

The only reputation damaged in my eyes is that of the individual protestors who resorted to extremem violence, and the individual police who were overly aggressive or instigated violence. I don't tar everyone with the same brush, ever. I do judge (as do we all), but only on a case by case basis, regardless of gender, ethnicity, appearance, uniform (or lack of) or any other identifying marker other than the content of their character.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Irrelevant. My earlier post was aimed at Masque's comment about multiple police vans being tipped over, when in fact it was an exaggeration as none were.
.

Could please point that one out as I am unaware of it myself.

Originally Posted by Sparkle

snippety snip snip....

Well its good that you accept that 99% of students who were clearly seen to be walking calmly with their placards weren't just thugs in disguise pretending to be peaceful protesters. Now we are beginning to stick with the facts, I hope this is a sign of things to come in this discussion.

The only reputation damaged in my eyes is that of the individual protestors who resorted to extremem violence, and the individual police who were overly aggressive or instigated violence. I don't tar everyone with the same brush, ever. I do judge (as do we all), but only on a case by case basis, regardless of gender, ethnicity, appearance, uniform (or lack of) or any other identifying marker other than the content of their character.

Re "accept that 99% of students comment", one of my earliest posts in this thread (#73) was agreeing with Damien who stated

I think the NUS conducted themselves appropriately throughout this entire protest. They worked well the the police, they deplored the violence in strong terms, and the actual march they organised was peaceful and well managed.

There is a good video of some students outside the Tory HQ chanting against those who were throwing things from the roof.

The reporting of the protest this morning has been keen to differentiate between the students and those who attached themselves in the march in order to cause disruption. A former senior member of the flying squad said the same on the radio this morning, that the NUS would never have been the problem but rather a professional group of troublemakers who use all marches to cause trouble.

so I had accepted it a long time ago.....

Re your tar/brush interface scenario - from your earlier posts....

Originally posted by Sparkle #76
Funny how the ill educated often have a problem with those who are

Originally posted by Sparkle #82 re Derek having a degree
Or that someone's telling "epic" fibs, if you'd earned a degree worth its salt I seriously doubt you'd be serving in your current career field

Originally posted by Sparkle #806
I'd hate to imagine what the riot police would be doing if the cameras weren't there...

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Irony, thy name is FB.......

I see - you can interpret something from a shaky fuzzy cameraphone recording, but that option is not available to others.....

You just need to have Politically Selective Mode enabled...

---------- Post added at 16:30 ---------- Previous post was at 16:27 ----------

Originally Posted by Masque

So students lifting steel fence panels to use as weapons along with anything else they can lay their hands and destroying public property or daubing paint on everything in sight does not constitute a riot, then please explain what the students were doing as that does not come under their right to protest under any law in any country on this planet.

Maybe you are using these.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

To see these.

Standard issue for some folks...

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Russ

Do you think that video is indicative of what happened that day? Hang on why am i asking that? Of course you do.

But reality check - no it isn't.

Originally Posted by Tuftus

Who were the people swearing?

The Police asking them to move back or the rioters replying with F words etc



Get a grip and step in to the real world my friend.

Are you seriously trying to say that was rioting. That is a serious overreaction, but then if your assumption is indicative of what the police believed, is no wonder they are being accused of overzealousness.

---------- Post added at 16:32 ---------- Previous post was at 16:31 ----------

Originally Posted by Derek

So you haven't seen any of the other videos? The ones where fencing is pulled down, windows are smashed, fireworks, flares and petrol bombs thrown at police lines, fires set on parliament square.

You've seen none of them and decide to base your opinion of what happened on one heavily edited shaky-cam video from later on in the night.

I am not talking about other videos, I am talking about the one linked to.

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Irrelevant. My earlier post was aimed at Masque's comment about multiple police vans being tipped over, when in fact it was an exaggeration as none were.

Actually i believe it was me who said "vans being tipped over" which fair enough was a slight exageration to force a point ,but still ammounts to the same thing .

Yes from reading up on this, I do believe it is the same van. The one that was deliberately left as bait in the protester "kettle" in the November demo.

and you honestly believe that? , you actually believe that a £30,000 van was used as bait to encourage the kids to riot ?

what an idiotic thing to say

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by martyh

and you honestly believe that? , you actually believe that a £30,000 van was used as bait to encourage the kids to riot ?

what an idiotic thing to say

As idiotic as the truth?

If you think the police would never leave a van in the middle of a demonstration as a PR stunt, you have much to learn about how the authorities police this country. Everybody knows it was left there on purpose, all part of the PR battle - and make no mistake, there IS a PR battle at work.

There was an in depth discussion online somewhere about that van. The conclusion was that it wasn't even in service, older model (possibly stripped out of anything of any value) and something wrong with the ID on it (iirc).
Yes, there is evidence that would suggest it was left there on purpose.
If I can find some relevant links I'll post them.

---------- Post added at 17:24 ---------- Previous post was at 17:23 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Actually i believe it was me who said "vans being tipped over" which fair enough was a slight exageration to force a point.

Ah, so it was. Apologies Masque. That'll teach me to type and work at the same time

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by martyh

where the hell have you been the last few weeks ,when fire extinguishers were getting thrown,fences thrown,snooker balls,fireworks,flares were being thrown ,police hit with iron bars ,graffiti daubed all over the place ,national monuments defaced, windows smashed police vans turned over ,members of the royal family attacked ..have i missed anything ? bloody hell FB you realy know how to be selective in what you see .These are facts ,they cannot be denied ,they are on video for all of time ,go on utube and type "student riots" and see how many hits you get ,alternatively you could go and join the holocaust denial society

Originally Posted by Masque

So students lifting steel fence panels to use as weapons along with anything else they can lay their hands and destroying public property or daubing paint on everything in sight does not constitute a riot, then please explain what the students were doing as that does not come under their right to protest under any law in any country on this planet.

Maybe you are using these.



To see these.

Yes of course, that is exactly what I was referrimg to.

---------- Post added at 17:31 ---------- Previous post was at 17:26 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

But there aren't 20,000 rioters, so I call it a figment of your imagination.....

But there appears to be who many seem to think there were.