60M : VM IPv6 plans?

[sam-vm]

I've just updated the firmware on my TP-Link WDR4300 dual band gigabit router (firmware date 25-12-2012) and noticed that the device now has IPv6 support

Just out of curiosity, I was wondering if anyone has info on Virgin Media’s plans for implementing IPv6 across their network?

[BenMcr]

Being looked into but no immediate plans to switch as VM have enough IPv4 addresses for the medium term

Part of the plans will what to do with all the customers on non-IPv6 compatible kit that VM have supplied

[Chrysalis]

seems all uk isps have a bad attitude on this, as its not just needed for when their own ip's run out but also to allow access to ipv6 websites.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

but also to allow access to ipv6 websites.

Of which almost all will also have a IPv4 site too

Switching on IPv6 itself is the reasonably easy bit. As with any new technology, it's the support that costs i.e

• Swap out all non-IPv6 kit so that all customers get the same level of service,
• Leave IPv6 to new customers only,
• If you have IPv6 compatible kit right through to the customer, how do you then support customers who's own kit isn't compatible?
• What extra support issues come with IPv6 that don't with IPv4 so that your staff have to be trained?

etc.

Not denying that VM do have a need to do it, but they've got to balance cost effectiveness against technological need

Staff training and VM really lol lol

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

Staff training and VM really lol lol

Yes, really.

[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Of which almost all will also have a IPv4 site too

Just because it's optional doesn't mean you shouldn't support it.

Not denying that VM do have a need to do it, but they've got to balance cost effectiveness against technological need

At the beginning at least there is no reason to need to provide kit, support or equipment swaps. If VM force themselves to do it, it's their own fault.

Many providers provide IPv6 on a "self supported" basis. It's there and it works - if you can figure out how to use it yourself.

[Kushan]

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

Staff training and VM really lol lol

I think you're underestimating the potentially huge support cost moving to IPv6 will cause. As has been mentioned, most people don't have IPv6 capable equipment (If it's Virgin supplied, the only things that support IPv6 are the Ambit 300*, the Superhub* and I THINK the D-link router - that's it) and more importantly, quite a lot of equipment will likely need to be configured to use it. It's a huge undertaking on Virgin's part and there's practically no benefit to it right now.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

seems all uk isps have a bad attitude on this, as its not just needed for when their own ip's run out but also to allow access to ipv6 websites.

Such as what? Seriously, is there a site that's only accessible via IPv6 that's actually worth visiting right now? Don't get me wrong, it IS a necessary move and will have to be done at some point, but I really don't think the internet has been segregated like that just yet.

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Being looked into but no immediate plans to switch as VM have enough IPv4 addresses for the medium term

Part of the plans will what to do with all the customers on non-IPv6 compatible kit that VM have supplied

I would like to think that part of switching to the Superhub is to make the IPv6 upgrade path easier. Could be wishful thinking on my part.

Mostly, I just want it so I can assign a unique IP to every device I own.


* If I recall correctly, IPv6 support is part of the requirements for a DOCSIS3 device.

Originally Posted by Kushan

I think you're underestimating the potentially huge support cost moving to IPv6 will cause. As has been mentioned, most people don't have IPv6 capable equipment (If it's Virgin supplied, the only things that support IPv6 are the Ambit 300*, the Superhub* and I THINK the D-link router - that's it) and more importantly, quite a lot of equipment will likely need to be configured to use it. It's a huge undertaking on Virgin's part and there's practically no benefit to it right now.


.

No I was not I was just joking hence the lol lol

[sam-vm]

Hi... and thanks to all who have chipped in with info... interesting stuff.

I wonder just how many IPv4 addresses are actually available to the likes of VM and how long they might actually last?

From that question I guess might spring a further question that is, "will there come a tipping point for companies like VM when they have little or no other choice than to actually start implementing IPv6 and how far off is that... months/years?"

Given that we all now seem to have multiple devices in the house all wanting access to our local networks and beyond, it would seem that the need for IPv6 is creping up on us ever faster?

Hopefully more companies like TP-Link will start including as standard, or making available via firmware updates, IPv6 capability in their products.

[Qtx]

They could do more NAT based tricks, have a IP4 to IP6 gateway/proxy site, or all sorts of things to put off doing. It should have been last year or the year before that IP6 was considered in relation to customers equipment. One would hope firmware updates to the superhub and future hubs could enable IP6 in the future...surely someone has considered all of these things when deciding on equipment. Considering how long customers have had the original VM modem, getting IP6 ready equipment out there now would be beneficial.

[Kushan]

Originally Posted by sam-vm

Hi... and thanks to all who have chipped in with info... interesting stuff.

I wonder just how many IPv4 addresses are actually available to the likes of VM and how long they might actually last?

From that question I guess might spring a further question that is, "will there come a tipping point for companies like VM when they have little or no other choice than to actually start implementing IPv6 and how far off is that... months/years?"

Given that we all now seem to have multiple devices in the house all wanting access to our local networks and beyond, it would seem that the need for IPv6 is creping up on us ever faster?

Hopefully more companies like TP-Link will start including as standard, or making available via firmware updates, IPv6 capability in their products.

I'm certainly not an expert when it comes to networking stuff, so take this with a pinch of salt. However, Virgin owns 5 large blocks, the IP's beginning 62, 80, 81, 82 and 213.

Source: http://help.virginmedia.com/system/s...RTICLE_ID=2825

Each of those blocks has just over 16million usable IPs (16,777,214 I believe is the precise number), ranging from say 62.0.0.1 to 62.255.255.255. Now there are some lost in there, as you'd never give 62.0.0.1 to a customer and Virgin's own equipment will take up some, but 16million is a good place to start. Times that by 5 and you get roughly 80million IP addresses. That's a lot more than Virgin will ever need, even in the long term as there's just not that many people in the UK. So basically, Virgin won't run out any time soon and the move to IPv6 will be more about offering services and the ability to connect to non-IPv4 sites.

I believe they have so many IP's mostly due to the way Virgin was the culmination of various cable networks merging together over the years - NTL and Blueyonder, for example.

Originally Posted by Qtx

They could do more NAT based tricks, have a IP4 to IP6 gateway/proxy site, or all sorts of things to put off doing. It should have been last year or the year before that IP6 was considered in relation to customers equipment. One would hope firmware updates to the superhub and future hubs could enable IP6 in the future...surely someone has considered all of these things when deciding on equipment. Considering how long customers have had the original VM modem, getting IP6 ready equipment out there now would be beneficial.

Some routers have built in support for 6to4 (or 4to6) tunnelling, so realistically if anyone wanted IPv6 right now, they can.

[Jumping]

Originally Posted by Kushan

Each of those blocks has just over 16million usable IPs (16,777,214 I believe is the precise number), ranging from say 62.0.0.1 to 62.255.255.255. Now there are some lost in there, as you'd never give 62.0.0.1 to a customer and Virgin's own equipment will take up some, but 16million is a good place to start. Times that by 5 and you get roughly 80million IP addresses. That's a lot more than Virgin will ever need, even in the long term as there's just not that many people in the UK. So basically, Virgin won't run out any time soon and the move to IPv6 will be more about offering services and the ability to connect to non-IPv4 sites.

I believe they have so many IP's mostly due to the way Virgin was the culmination of various cable networks merging together over the years - NTL and Blueyonder, for example.

That is a lot of IP addresses but not all ISP's are that lucky and its a bit of a waste to have that many as a lot of other ISP's are running short of IP addresses. Yes there aren't 80 million people in the UK but a lot of people use more than one IP and fair enough a lot of people won't use any...but I really think more should be done to start using IPv6 and this isn't just Virgin that is dragging their feet.

[qasdfdsaq]

ISPs in some countries run NAT as standard and charge extra for an external IP. That said on the link given only says "Valid IP addresses" begin with the above.

VM certainly do not own every IP address beginning with that number. 62.80.81.123 (actually all of 62.80.80.0 - 62.80.95.255) for example, is owned by BT Prague and 80.40.0.0 - 80.47.255.255 is owned by Tiscali. 213.45.0.0 to 213.45.255.255 is owned by Telecom Italia. 81.45.6.0 - 81.45.13.255 is Telefonica Spain. 82.224.8.0 - 82.224.9.255 is Proxad France. Then again, my old VM connection had an 92.232.0.0/13 IP and that's not even in the list at all.

In fact, just picking at random out of the above ranges, I'm yet to come across a single one that *is* owned by VM. Statistically that would suggest VM own less than 20% of them. VM's routing servers only announce a total of 9,883,392 IPs across all ranges. That includes all their own infrastructure and all services/IPs they provide for other businesses, as well as all companies that connect through VM, so not all are available to consumer broadband.

[Kushan]

Originally Posted by Jumping

That is a lot of IP addresses but not all ISP's are that lucky and its a bit of a waste to have that many as a lot of other ISP's are running short of IP addresses. Yes there aren't 80 million people in the UK but a lot of people use more than one IP and fair enough a lot of people won't use any...but I really think more should be done to start using IPv6 and this isn't just Virgin that is dragging their feet.

I don't think anyone's going to argue with that, but the urge to jump to IPv6 simply won't be due to running out of IP addresses (For VM, at least). It'll come from people wanting to access and communicate with people and services that are only on IPv6.

Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq

ISPs in some countries run NAT as standard and charge extra for an external IP. That said on the link given only says "Valid IP addresses" begin with the above.

VM certainly do not own every IP address beginning with that number. 62.80.81.123 (actually all of 62.80.80.0 - 62.80.95.255) for example, is owned by BT Prague and 80.40.0.0 - 80.47.255.255 is owned by Tiscali. 213.45.0.0 to 213.45.255.255 is owned by Telecom Italia. 81.45.6.0 - 81.45.13.255 is Telefonica Spain. 82.224.8.0 - 82.224.9.255 is Proxad France.

In fact, just picking at random out of the above ranges, I'm yet to come across a single one that *is* owned by VM. Statistically that would suggest VM own less than 20% of them.

This is also true, I wasn't sure how to look that kind of information up. Suffice it to say though, Virgin isn't running out any time soon.