Huge wireless network issues - why are routers less reliable than a chocolate teapot?

[rmwebs]

Hey folks,

I'm here asking for some input as to what could be causing us so many problems. In our house we're heavy internet users. We've got a LOT of gadgets connected up, however our home network is terribly unreliable and slow.

We use 2 netgear routers (one of which is located on a second floor, using an access point to connect to the first - mainly to provide extra signal coverage.

Over the last 10 ish years, we've gone from one of the first Belkin 802.11b routers, now through to an 802.11n router. I have no less than 20 broken/dead routers in a box.

The problems we're getting are:

• Poor signal throught the house (even when standing in the same room as a router)
• VERY slow connectivity (even locally)
• Primary router drops DSL IP at least 2-4 times a week
• Routers lock up or drop connection. Rebooting them (or updating a setting with the same values) fixes the issue.

I've tried all the usual stuff you would do to fix the issue:

• Tried new routers
• Tried changing signals (I've got a local signal scanner which picks up that pretty all signals are in use around here. I can detect approx 10 other networks in the area from my laptop right now)
• New Ethernet cables of all types
• New modem (we recently were given the new black model branded with VM)
• Setting one router to 802.11n and the other to 802.11g to 'split' the devices to balance the load out a bit

Nothing seems to work and its driving me mad! I really wish we could go wired, but its not an option - it would require the entire house be rewired as like I said, we have a lot of gadgets (spread through the house).

I've put together a rough network diagram of how our local network works. To give you an idea of how poor it is, I have a network drive (Netgear stora) connected to our primary router. My Mac Mini (HTPC) in the next room (Wireless) has problems steaming a simple TV show (standard definition, filesize under 200mb).

So, heres the diagram: http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3...01017at120.png

Any suggestions on what we can do to improve our network?

My only thoughts on how to improve it are:

• Go complete 802.11n - problem is that laptops with 802.11g cards will have to use a dongle. Plus it would be hellishly expensive to upgrade based on the number of items we have
• Rip out the 2nd router, and attempt to move the main router more to the center of the house.
• Mod the routers with a super signal booster like the ones Maplin sell (The great big ones for £30ish)

<edit>I should not that once connected, the internet connection is fine - we can max out our 10mbps connection with no problems - the issues are getting a stable connection wirelessly in the first place</edit>

I'm really stumped as to how I can fix this. Any suggestions welcomed!

Thanks for taking the time to read this

Rick

[GeoffW]

How are the two routers connected?

If they are hard wired, then I think you have a problem with WiFi channels. The three non overlapping channels are 1, 6, and 11, if you set to channel 8 they are interfering with each other and anything around on 6 and 11.

Get netstumbler, do a scan and choose the least used channels in each location.

You'd expect a G router to cover most houses pretty well if there's nothing unusual in the building.

[arcimedes]

You need to have the 2 routers on different channels as suggested in GeoffW's post. Are there any other wireless devices shuch as phones door bells etc?

[rmwebs]

Thanks for the suggestion chaps - I'll try splitting them up onto say 1 and 11. The only problem is that because we have so many people round here with routers, all the channels have at least 1 router on them (some have 2 or 3).

As for other devices, we've got cordless phones. One which has its base station plugged into the phone line, and another which acts as a wireless extender for a second handset.

We also have 3x wireless mice which are on the 2.4ghz frequency and a microwave about 4 meters from the main router.

Bit of a messy network full of obstacles.

I was having a read around about using homeplug. If I was to get a 200mbps one and use it to move the router to the middle of our second floor, do you think this would help? That way the router would be smack bang in the middle of the house, plus would be higher up (from what I hear, the signal travels down, so the higher it is, the better).

Thanks again!

[TheNorm]

Originally Posted by rmwebs

...I was having a read around about using homeplug. If I was to get a 200mbps one and use it to move the router to the middle of our second floor, do you think this would help? That way the router would be smack bang in the middle of the house, plus would be higher up (from what I hear, the signal travels down, so the higher it is, the better)....

I don't think the signal is affected by gravity.

I use 85 meg HomePlug devices and they work well. This week you'll be able to purchase 1000 meg devices:

http://www.solwise.co.uk/net-powerline-gig-index.htm

£90 for a pair isn't cheap, but it might be your best solution.

[jb66]

I'd not buy any less than 200meg honeplugs

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by jb66

I'd not buy any less than 200meg honeplugs

I cant speak for the 1000mb units but there is no difference between the 85mb and the 200mb units in terms of throughput. At least not in the 6 different units I tested a while back.

[LondonRoad]

Have you thought of adding a physical network throughout the house and eliminate wireless problems completely?

It may not be expensive as you think.

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by LondonRoad

Have you thought of adding a physical network throughout the house and eliminate wireless problems completely?

It may not be expensive as you think.

And would definitely be cheaper than one of the high end 802.11N routers.
I have just done that myself, the wireless is exclusively for the laptop now and even that gets hard-wired when in media centre mode. The only thing that makes me think its not suitable for the OP is that setup is over several floors, whereas my setup was just over one floor wired and two floors wireless.
Not that running RJ45 between floors is expensive but it can be a pain to do and may not be possible if the OP is in rented accomodation.

To the original post: Out of interest, what router models have been used on this network? because the two named router models are known for the very issues you are having.

[rmwebs]

Thanks for all the responses guys - really appreciate it.

@LondonRoad & @ZrByte: Ragarding wired, I'm not too sure it'll be an option. We've got a large extension on the side of our house and the only way into that section would be through the door that leads through to it as its a sold wall. Even the loft area is separate.

On top of that, I wouldnt be too confident drilling holes all over the place. I did think about this once before and was quickly reminded that we have laminate floor glued to our floorboards (dont ask! :p) and wouldnt be able to dig it up to get a cable under to each room.

-

With regards to homeplugs, how do they work when it comes to wanting to use more than two? Could you do something like:

Homeplug 1 - plugged into the cable modem
Homeplug 2 - Another location on groundfloor, hooked up to a gigabit hub and split into a couple of rooms using Cat6.
Homeplug 3 - Second floor, again hooked up to a gigabit hub and split to each room.

I've not used homeplugs before and the info about using more than two (if its even possible) hasn't been posted on any reviews I've seen so far.

If I could get a bunch of them to cover the house we'd be pretty much sorted!

Thanks again

---------- Post added at 16:48 ---------- Previous post was at 15:57 ----------

Just noticed - I didnt answer ZrByte's question RE router types.

Other than the two I mentioned, I've had a number of Belkin's from the original chunky grey one with 4x 10/100 ethernet ports to a more modern (2009?) one - not got the model numbers to hand unfortunately. Also tried a D-Link - I had it picked up from the states as it was one of the first 802.11n routers, and was hellishly expensive over here. Worked well for a few months, then started locking up, rebooting etc. I installed DDWRT on it and it helped greatly, but eventually it gave up and wont even power on anymore.

[Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by TheNorm

I don't think the signal is affected by gravity.

I use 85 meg HomePlug devices and they work well. This week you'll be able to purchase 1000 meg devices:

http://www.solwise.co.uk/net-powerline-gig-index.htm

£90 for a pair isn't cheap, but it might be your best solution.

I think he is referring to the radiation pattern of the aerial. Still an incorrect assumption and impractical to model in a house.

A very over complicated system to appease every one in your household. My suggestion would be to switch the whole lot off and spend some time with your family talking about their day at school and work.

[rmwebs]

Thanks for taking my family into consideration Waldo but we are already very close

It's not as simple as turning it all off when both myself and my father work from home a large amount of the time.

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by rmwebs

Thanks for all the responses guys - really appreciate it.

@LondonRoad & @ZrByte: Ragarding wired, I'm not too sure it'll be an option. We've got a large extension on the side of our house and the only way into that section would be through the door that leads through to it as its a sold wall. Even the loft area is separate.

On top of that, I wouldnt be too confident drilling holes all over the place. I did think about this once before and was quickly reminded that we have laminate floor glued to our floorboards (dont ask! :p) and wouldnt be able to dig it up to get a cable under to each room.

-

With regards to homeplugs, how do they work when it comes to wanting to use more than two? Could you do something like:

Homeplug 1 - plugged into the cable modem
Homeplug 2 - Another location on groundfloor, hooked up to a gigabit hub and split into a couple of rooms using Cat6.
Homeplug 3 - Second floor, again hooked up to a gigabit hub and split to each room.

I've not used homeplugs before and the info about using more than two (if its even possible) hasn't been posted on any reviews I've seen so far.

If I could get a bunch of them to cover the house we'd be pretty much sorted!

Thanks again

---------- Post added at 16:48 ---------- Previous post was at 15:57 ----------

Just noticed - I didnt answer ZrByte's question RE router types.

Other than the two I mentioned, I've had a number of Belkin's from the original chunky grey one with 4x 10/100 ethernet ports to a more modern (2009?) one - not got the model numbers to hand unfortunately. Also tried a D-Link - I had it picked up from the states as it was one of the first 802.11n routers, and was hellishly expensive over here. Worked well for a few months, then started locking up, rebooting etc. I installed DDWRT on it and it helped greatly, but eventually it gave up and wont even power on anymore.

That Would almost work but you will need a router in-between the cable modem and the first homeplug, unless you buy a router with an integrated homeplug. That is unless you have another system in place to distribute your internet connection otherwise first device to connect takes over the net for your house and a modem reboot is the only way to free it.
Just don't forget that if the machines on the first floor want to transfer data from machines on the ground floor the maximum throughput is up to the speed of the homeplug and not the gigabit hub, only machines on the same floor will be capable of gigabit speeds.
And Just a word of warning, the fastest speed I have ever managed with homeplugs is 3MB/s (24mb) and that was tested over several different brand new power strips with no surge protection so my houses wiring wasn't to blame. That was on the 85mb and the 200mb units, they both achieved the same speed.

[rmwebs]

Cheers ZrByte. The gigabit bugs were mainly for future proofing - one day someone might get a homeplug running on gigabit (apparently the current gigabit ones dont work as advertised). In addition, it would allow local (i.e devices hooked up to the hub) speeds to be a bit faster if we're doing file transfers and such.

It seems homeplugs are getting various reviews. Some people report getting good speeds, but most seem to report bad speeds. So, I bought a pair from eBuyer today - a 200mbps 'extra value' one (wonder if it comes in a green and white Asda smart price box :p) to see how it goes. If it doesn't work I'll send it back.

Also, with regards to the router - I was going to keep the current router hooked up to the modem, and run the homeplug from one of its LAN ports. I did a bit of digging on the Netgear's and it seems the router can be made more reliable by using LAN and disabling DHCP and WiFi to reduce its load.

Anyway - its arriving tomorrow along with some brand new Cat5e cabling - I'll report back once I've given it a try!

Thanks again for the assistance chaps!

Have you tired diconnecting everything and then pluging stuff back in bit by bit - to see whats's causing the issues?