From NTL to ADSL - advice please...

[Anastasis]

I've been reading a lot of posts on this forum about ADSL v NTL etc., and with prices the way they now are, I am seriously considering switching over to ADSL Broadband.

The thing is I am confused over what I need to make the change.

I know I need a BT telephone line. We have originally been considering switching over to a BT phone line anyway, due to easier alternative call routing (e.g. 18866), caller display and the like. I believe I can still do that and leave my NTL Broadband in place until such time as I am definite about switching to ADSL, but at least by changing to a BT line paves the way for that.

When I sign up with an ADSL provider what do I need/what is best? Reading the different offers out there I am getting confused over what I think should be fairly straightforward - probably it's me that needs straightening out!

Some offer free modem and connection (e.g. Wanadoo offer this as a 1mb service for £22.99 incl. 6Gb monthly usage - I know I need about 2-3Gb per month). I have read elsewhere that the free modems are not worth having as they use USB and not ethernet.

As an alternative, a company like PlusNet offer a 1mb service with 3Gb monthly usage for £18.49, but you have to buy your equipment. The price sounds excellent, but what equipment do I need/should I buy?

Then I read something about activation fees. Do I have to pay one of these for whatever provider I go with?

Then a friend has said I need to make sure my telephone has a filter. So do these get provided automatically when I sign up with a provider or do I need to buy this as well?

I get the feeling I am being a proper here, but I am just not clear about what I need and what the real (unhidden) costs will be of moving over to ADSL.

I've even read through Neil's sticky thread about ADSL, but maybe it's because the thread is now so long that I am confused by the avalanche of information contained in it.

Thanks in advance for a dummies guide to moving from NTL to ADSL.

[Chris W]

If you are using very little bandwidth... have a look at

www.metronet.co.uk - can work out really really cheap for low users. You will need to buy your own equipment though

[Anastasis]

Originally Posted by monkeybreath

If you are using very little bandwidth... have a look at

www.metronet.co.uk - can work out really really cheap for low users. You will need to buy your own equipment though

Thanks. Having run DU Meter on my connection for a month I know my requirement is 2-3Gb a month (although I may use more if I had a faster connection than my current NTL 300k).

From the look of this one with the lower prices only giving you 200Mb, it doesn't look as there are many cost savings when your usage goes above that.

[DrAwesome]

Originally Posted by Anastasis

Some offer free modem and connection (e.g. Wanadoo offer this as a 1mb service for £22.99 incl. 6Gb monthly usage - I know I need about 2-3Gb per month). I have read elsewhere that the free modems are not worth having as they use USB and not ethernet.

Free Adsl Modems do tend to be Usb, but Ethernet Adsl modems are quite cheap to buy.

Originally Posted by Anastasis

Then I read something about activation fees. Do I have to pay one of these for whatever provider I go with?

Yes migration charges do apply to some Adsl isp's unless they have an offer on that wavers the fee.

Originally Posted by Anastasis

Then a friend has said I need to make sure my telephone has a filter. So do these get provided automatically when I sign up with a provider or do I need to buy this as well?

A filter is usually supplied with the modem that you buy, if you need more than one then you need to buy extra. (they cost less than a few ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£ÃƒÆ ’‚£ to buy)

Originally Posted by Anastasis

I get the feeling I am being a proper here, but I am just not clear about what I need and what the real (unhidden) costs will be of moving over to ADSL.

I suggest that you read my thread DrAwesomes Useful Info & News I made the transision like most & it was painless, but lots of decissions had to be made (that is the hard part)

Decide which Adsl ISP suits you & its very important that you Always Read the T&C's but dont stop there checkout/readup on the information supplied in Adsl discussion Forums to see if there are any major customer/network issues, with the provide you have choosen.

What you have to pay
Activation Fee (unless the isp you have choosen to offer fee activation) it includes the BT Line Test + 1st months Rental Fee in advance.

The Price of an Ethernet Adsl Modem, Ethernet/Router Adsl Modem or better still wireless (whatever the best choice for your pc setup or how much your willing to spend)

It should take upto 30 Days to get you switched over (subject to the BT line test) & depending on how well your new isp customer services handles your activation process.


hmmm sorry about the re-editing i forgot the punctuation

[Ignition]

You should be ok with ADSL. If you have a BT phoneline in the house deactivated BT can usually activate it almost immediately and you can order ADSL the following day.

All things being well with the line test you should be online in 5-10 working days depending on when the next run of activations on the exchange are due (BT don't do them piecemeal they are done in bulk so it's a case of which batch you are on).

You won't have to pay a migration fee at all as you aren't migrating from one DSL provider to another.

You will have to pay an activation fee unless ISPs have special offers. This fee is currently £58.75 (£50+VA T). This does not cover the line test, that is free, and does not cover first month's rental fee. That is the price BT charge the ISPs and most charge at cost.

For info about ISPs from real users check out http://www.adslguide.org.uk and their forums http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk

If you went with an ADSL ISP and ordered now you'd be set up before the end of this month.

The rest is as DrAwesome says really.

Last question, why are you considering dropping ntl bb? Cost I'm guessing.

Thanks and if you move I hope it all goes smoothly and your new ISP serves you well - metronet and plusnet are both very well regarded

[Anastasis]

Thanks for your helpful and courteous responses. I appreciate your patience with my confusion over this. Thanks too for the excellent links to information that you and others have available.

To answer JustAnotherN00b, my reason for considering leaving NTL BB is largely cost. In terms of the quality of the connection I have found it to be OK, and haven't had too much cause to complain really. It's just that now compared to others NTL's service is not very good value.

I have been with NTL for around 8 years (although when we first signed up it was Nynex then C&W). We had TV & telephone initially and waited patiently for them to provide the promised free dial-up internet access. As it turned out my area was one of the last to get it, so it wasn't long before it became £5 a month, then £10. By that time BB was getting more popular and as we were paying a fee for dial-up it seemed worth it to pay a little more to get an always on service and benefit from freeing up our telephone line to boot.

I have been on the 128k, then 150k, now 300k service for about 18 months and in that time of course the price has gone up. Although the speed has increased also, in my opinion NTL are no longer leaders when it comes to providing the best value.

We ditched NTL TV in favour of Sky about 3 years ago, but now it's likely that we will first ditch their phone service which again has lost its edge in an ever increasingly competitive market. Their 3-2-1 call charges were great at the time, but compared to the likes of 18866 and others now they are very over-priced.

Likewise, when you look around the market of ISP's and see PlusNet offering a 1mb service with 3gb limit (which should adequately cover my usage) for £18.49 compared to the £17.99 I pay for 300k with NTL, it doesn't take too much for me to think the grass is much greener over on the ADSL side of the fence. Whilst I like the convenience of my NTL cable modem, the actual costs of transferring over to ADSL seem reasonable compared to the other benefits.

I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise, but I seem to have read a lot of posts that concur with my thinking and very few that don't.

Thanks again for all of your feedback.

[DrAwesome]

To add to my post (above)

If a BT engineer should have to call at your home to check the BT line ask him/her how much it would cost to fit a NTE5 faceplate splitter (the NTE5 faceplate splitter has a centralised filter which is built into/behind the NTE5 faceplate) The job of the filter is to make sure that all devices sharing the BT phoneline with your ADSL service are prevented from interfering with your BB connection, & vice versa.

They can be expensive (if your lucky some BT Engineers with give you a huge discount) if not then at least you tried its also worth asking as it does save having unsightly dangling microfilters hanging from your BT socket (it looks alot neater) & it helps prevent noise on your internal wiring interfering with your ADSL connection.

[Anastasis]

Thanks DrAwesome for your suggestion. I guess you mean these.

I do have a few phone sockets around the house which I put in before we had standard dial-up to facilitate using a computer in other rooms. Consequently, would fitting one of these NTE5 sockets to the main phone line affect all of the other sockets in the house if I should relocate my elsewhere?

[DrAwesome]

Originally Posted by Anastasis

Thanks DrAwesome for your suggestion. I guess you mean these.

I do have a few phone sockets around the house which I put in before we had standard dial-up to facilitate using a computer in other rooms. Consequently, would fitting one of these NTE5 sockets to the main phone line affect all of the other sockets in the house if I should relocate my elsewhere?

Yes thats them
from that link you posted if you look further down the page you will see

It is possible to fit just one filter at the point where the phone line comes into your building, to do this you will need to wire in the Face Plate Splitter. This may not be the best option for you if your computer is not near to the main phone point as all of your extensions will be filtered.

An alternative strategy is to use a filter at each point where a phone is connected. If you plan to use this method the all-in-one splitter from Solwise is more elegant than the cumbersome dangly-wires products available elsewhere, though these types will work just as well.

Note that you don't need a splitter at the point where your modem is connected. The modem can live quite happily with the low-frequency telephone signal. In fact the wires in the splitters American Style ADSL connection are just connected directly to the BT plug that goes into the wall. This means that if you don't have a phone plugged into the same point as your modem, you could save some money and just use a lead with a BT plug on the end to connect your modem. We have leads like this, called RJP/BTP above.

which hopefully answers your question.

[Anastasis]

So if I am right in my understanding of what this is saying, this means that if I have one of these NTE5's installed at my main socket, all other sockets in the house will not be able to be used for ADSL. Is that right?

If so, given that at some point I may want to move my PC upstairs from where it is now in the corner of the dining room, it would be best to go for a standard socket and filter each phone socket individually. If that is the case, then it isn't really a problem as I have two DECT phones with the base station plugged into the main socket, so only the main line would need a split filter. All other sockets would still be usable for normal phone use should I want to plug in a corded phone.

Again, am I right in what I am saying?

[themelon]

Im not really seeing the cost benefits of moving.

It seems to me you are considering paying more for a more restricted service than you currently have.

There is very little difference (except for upload) between a 300k service and a 512k ADSL service, infact at peak times with poor contention I have seen a 512k ADSL service operating at 150k or less, at least with cable unless you are in an oversubscribed area which you can complain about and get moved onto a different UBR, you will get pretty much on the mark in speed tests.

For telephone also........you have to pay BT £10.50 for option one whether you like it or not now which terribly anti competative but thats a different story!! I suppose a lot of this depends on your calling patterns but to be honest I find it hard to beat the ntl 5p plan but im not at home during the day and never call mobiles of my landline (free anytime any network minutes on mobile) so that may be the reason.

Is the grass greener with ADSL im not so sure, I just moved house had ADSL installed with Pipex and found it pitifully slow compared to what I was used too the best speed I got on 512k service was 350k and that was a 2am! Also its not an alsways on service, you have to dial up and it diconnects with soon after and I was begging ntl to come back who gave me a nice 3 month free deal on TV and Broadband as I was previously with them for 18 months. These cheap capped services are exactly what they say on the tin.........cheap and nasty, I personally would stay clear of them and pay a little more for a less rigorously capped service or uncapped service.

Migrating to capped service is giving money grabbers like Wanadoo and BT who offer a measly and utterly pointless 1GB cap service, further fuel to add to their fire because it gives them the impression that people actually like their service...........fact of the matter is the public are underinformed, and will be able to do little when their 'cheap' £19.99 service reaches the Cap and starts running at 32k or cuts off completely, of course each of the said will only be too happy to move customers on to a £29.99 package at a later date.

A final note...........If you are planning on having a 1mb service capped a 3GB monthly?? is that correct? Can I ask for what reason.........the main point I can see for a 1mb connection is downloading lots........for browsing the web (html pages) a good 56k connection is sufficient, for a bit of streaming media you are unlikely to need more than 512k so 1mb might be a bit of an overkill!! Just a thought!

[DeadKenny]

Cost benefits (for myself at least)

NTL = £39 for 256kbps upstream (which is what I'm really after), 1.5Mbps down, capped at 30Gb per month (or 1Gb per day).

PlusNet = £14.99 for 512down/256kbps upstream. Capped at 1Gb per month.

or PlusNet = £21.99 for 512down/256up - uncapped

or PlusNet = £19.99 for 2Mbps (256upstream), capped at 1Gb per month

or PlusNet = £40 for 2Mbps down/256kbps up, uncapped.


i.e. whatever I pay with PlusNet I get far more value for money than NTL.


Caps

Sure some are capped. So are NTL.

Some ADSL options are not capped though. NTL don't offer uncapped.

Some ADSL options offer static IPs. NTL do not.

As for people who are using 1Mbps would be people downloading 24/7 and thus 1Gb cap is useless, well that's not true. There's more to having higher bandwidth than just being able to download pirate movies 24/7.

1Mbps to me (or even 2Mbps) has a single use in just making a download quicker.

e.g. if I need to download XP SP2, I don't have to wait too long. It won't exceed the cap as it's only about 200Mb (less than that if you don't download the whole lot). Benefit of the bandwidth is it downloads quick. Doesn't mean by having more bandwidth I'm going to be downloading loads of large downloads all the time, it's just when it comes to a large download I don't want to be waiting too long.

That said, the options for uncapped or higher capped services on ADSL still work out cheaper or better value than NTL by far.

Besides, the likes of PlusNet offer PAYG if you go above the cap and you can pay for higher caps or uncapped if you find you're using more.

Line Rental

BT Line - £10.50
NTL Line - £10.50

No difference. That's comparing BT's Option 1 vs NTL's 5p Talk Plan.

Whatever happens I need a phone line either way and I don't care really if it's with BT so I can get ADSL.

At least with BT I can have features that are impossible to get with NTL, and I can use the hundreds of cheap call providers that don't work with NTL.


Customer Service

Hands down, BT from my previous experience and that of almost all friends/family/colleagues, wins in every department when it comes to CS. I won't go into the miserable service I've had over the years with NTL, but they are reason enough to boot NTL alone regardless of my broadband quality. The number of grumbles from people at work when NTL are mentioned speaks volumes.

NTL engineers don't turn up on time, if at all, and no compensation for time wasted. BT guarantee you a time slot, actually turn up and even take your phone/mobile number to call you if they will be late or if they don't need to turn up at all (i.e. it's fixed/installed externally).

NTL's support line is NOT free, keeps you on hold for ages, patronises you and then cuts you off, EVERY TIME .

PlusNet (for example)... FREE support line.

From what people I know with PlusNet they've reported good CS.


Speed

When NTL broadband is working, yes it's nippy and you get near to full speed.

However, if you are one of the thousands on borderline signal levels, full speed is no use when the modem itself is rebooting all the time and NTL are absolutely no use when it comes to fixing it.

All people I know with ADSL are getting around 450 to 500kbps speeds on 512kbps. No one I know is getting poor speeds at peak periods.

Plus, if you live in a majority NTL area and switch to ADSL you'll probably have very little contention

On ADSL you can have up to 2Mbps (subject to availability). NTL were very reluctant to bump to 1.5Mbps and they accuse the top tier users of being "bandwidth hoggers". ADSL in LLU areas goes up to 4Mbps. Technology is evolving all the time and ADSL has a lot of capacity for improvement without having to replace the entire network. NTL's network is at capacity and oversubscribed already and many people need replacement wires to even get their cable modems working at all!


Reliability

See Signal Levels with NTL. They suck (often) . Must be the major cause of customer problems and yet NTL never want to believe anything is actually wrong. Requires frequent and costly engineer call outs to "attempt" to fix.

At least with BT, they'll tell you up front if your line is crap so you don't have to put up with a terrible service and no help in fixing it for years on end.

If the phone line is faulty, BT go out of their way to fix it quick and compensate if it's down for more than a day. With NTL you are not guaranteed either phone or internet and compensation is hard to achieve.


In summary

BT/ADSL may not be wonderful but my long experience of NTL (right back to CableTel days) is so appalling I have no choice but to walk, having tried every other avenue. The cheaper ADSL prices, higher speeds and forward thinking ISPs (as opposed to NTLs "1Mbps users are bandwidth hoggers" attitude ) add to the incentive.

[themelon]

Strictly speaking however the ntl 'cap' isnt really a 'cap' in the terms that these other 'cheap and nasty' providers will see it. IE I exceed my ntl cap frequently......trick is dont do it 3 days in a row, and the dont care.

Also the speeds mentioned are totally theoretical its likely that most people on a 512k ADSL service NEVER recieve the full service due to contention.

I still cant see the point of paying £19.99 for a capped service to download XP Service pack 2 (which royally screwed my computer anyway) when you can order a free update CD from microsoft using dial up and save the hassle!

Another note........BT dont tell you up front if your line is crap, they just dont tell you, then they deny it, then they say tough you will just have to put up with it! Been there done that at my old house a crackly line that they wouldnt replace because it cost too much......which meant too much noise for usable ADSL.

Personally I have Never had a problem with ntl customer service.....but have had plenty with BT. Once on losing service I had to ring them from a call box........they then ran a line test on the call box and told me there was NO fault.......after 30 minutes of arguing I managed to persude there was a problem and they reluctantly sent an engineer, who didnt come.

The information about ntl needed to replace the network is bull....its in a much better state than the 1930s Copper Cable local loops that BT have on their hands (OK inner city areas like London are good with Third party investment like Bulldog) but outer city areas will strugle to get 1Mb if that, much of the cable network is capable of running 8Mbs with a few minor modifications if there were suffieicent demand.....which there isnt currently. Britain has always been a nation of browsers and still is!

[DeadKenny]

Originally Posted by themelon

Also the speeds mentioned are totally theoretical its likely that most people on a 512k ADSL service NEVER recieve the full service due to contention.

Contention also exists on NTL and no one ever on NTL receives the full 300, 750, 1.5Mbps due to basic IP overheads. If you are on an oversubscribed UBR you'll soon realise what the contention problems are on NTL.

Most people I know with 512kbps ADSL get around 450 to 500kbps which is about the same offset from peak as NTL customers get (i.e. back in the days of 600kbps, I'd get maybe between 500 and 550kbps in reality).

I still cant see the point of paying £19.99 for a capped service to download XP Service pack 2 (which royally screwed my computer anyway) when you can order a free update CD from microsoft using dial up and save the hassle!

Well, the benefits or otherwise of installing SP2 is another matter, that's just an example, there are loads of others. The main thing is for a few quid more you can download a chunky download in half the time but you may not need the capacity needed with uncapped. However, the likes of PlusNet allow you to PAYG if you need extra and if you really use a lot you can pay for uncapped. It's still better value for money than NTL (e.g. 2Mbps uncapped for £1 more than NTL's capped 1.5Mbps service).

Another note........BT dont tell you up front if your line is crap, they just dont tell you

Yes they do. It's called a line test (or swoosh test). I know people who've had their line rejected and BT have been very stubborn about it refusing to let them re-apply for ADSL. NTL just say "yes" knowing full well their network is crap and they don't give a toss. The worst thing is many installers don't check signal levels, and that leads to misery for years (like I've been experiencing) . If they got it right first time and ensured a new line was pulled if it wasn't up to the job, half of NTL's problems would go away.

, then they deny it, then they say tough you will just have to put up with it! Been there done that at my old house a crackly line that they wouldnt replace because it cost too much......which meant too much noise for usable ADSL.

Simple trick people have told me works (and I know from old experience with BT myself works)... just tell BT you can't make phone calls. They'll soon come out and fix it. In some cases they'll do it for free, in others they may charge, but it gets fixed. With NTL if the line is crap, it's tough, they won't fix it.

Personally I have Never had a problem with ntl customer service.....but have had plenty with BT.

Opposite with me. My problems with NTL are almost legendary I expect (going by the amount I've moaned about it through the years going back to the original nthellworld site before NTL bought it ). Since day 1 back in CableTel days it's been a disaster.

Once on losing service I had to ring them from a call box........they then ran a line test on the call box and told me there was NO fault.......after 30 minutes of arguing I managed to persude there was a problem and they reluctantly sent an engineer, who didnt come.

Sounds like NTL. Engineers who don't turn up at the right time, 4 call-outs in a row (each of those call outs a direct result of the previous call out being a screw up), engineers who make me wait in all day and fix the problem elsewhere but don't tell me so another day wasted, engineers who turn up on the wrong day and have the balls to blame ME for not being in and cancelling my call out!!

The information about ntl needed to replace the network is bull....its in a much better state than the 1930s Copper Cable local loops that BT have on their hands (OK inner city areas like London are good with Third party investment like Bulldog) but outer city areas will strugle to get 1Mb if that, much of the cable network is capable of running 8Mbs with a few minor modifications if there were suffieicent demand.....which there isnt currently. Britain has always been a nation of browsers and still is!

The old copper cable is more reliable than NTL's pathetic mess. The problem is with Cable Modem's reliance on fibre/coax and the huge signal problems this results in. Cable technology is a lot older than ADSL and isn't designed to cope with the sheer load of users and the heavy demands of digital TV.

8Mbps on the current NTL cable network is a pipedream. With the large number of users and varing support per region, most of the network can't cope with that level (or even half that), plus most of the set top boxes can't cope.

I'll tell you what needs replacing though, it's the coax cables that run to the houses that are almost all in a shoddy state and in a lot of cases where customers have signal problems they end up having to replace the cable with something that can actually cope (and even then, like in my case, it doesn't work).

P.S. I'm outside London and I'm on a 2Mbps enabled ADSL exchange (and within the distance for it).

Sorry, but you're preaching to the totally ****ed off here where the final straw has broken.

Besides this particular forum is for discussion of Other ISPs and this thread is about moving from NTL to ADSL, not for arguing that BT and/or ADSL may or may not be crap or worse/better than NTL. This is the thread and forum for those of us who never had NTL, cannot get NTL, or are fed up with NTL .

[themelon]

Everyone has different experiences and I think the original poster wanted to weight up the pros and cons of switching....I think its important to point out despite what some sectors of this site would have us belive that ADSL and BT are certainally not always smelling of Roses. I personally have had crap experiences with BT (2 years ago) and after moving to my new house with a BT line to which I thought 'save hassle and give them another chance' much to my regret surprise surprise Pipex ADSL keeps disconnecting randomly and speeds during peak times are 150k if your lucky, So I ring BT after a 30 minute wait I get through and they inform me there is a circuit fault.........great 2 weeks to a month to fix.

A lot depends on where you live, as a general rule here in the North West the ntl network seems pretty good, in 2 years I have lost service 3 times, my connection rarely has run below 550k. Customer service in manchester always seems quick and efficient to get through.

In the previous years before then I had a nightmare with BT, with a crackly line in the end I gave up because they were blaming my DECT Phone (which was brand new) They wouldnt replace the line until I tested 10 phones on it (where the hell do they get that one) And even then it was possible to make and recieve calls and Run a 56k modem (very slowly, funnily enough just above 34k the data requirement a BT Line must provide by law) so technically BT were within their rights not to fit a new line.........Just as I was in my rights to leave them thank god!

So I have the same loath for BT and would ever touch them again.........and thats even before people get me started on $ky Dodgytal who I have equal hate for!!