anti americanism fashionable - Page 9

downquark1 · 14-11-2003, 17:00

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However, if the IRA bombs either a shopping centre or a major department store (especially at Christmas), it is a fair bet they were aiming to hurt some kids, is it not?

Bear in mind I'm only trying to understand the terrorist mind, not agree with him. But I don't think they said 'hey let's go blow up children'. The idea is to get attention, what better than to aim a populated area in a busy period. I don't think children in particular had any part in their thinking.

handyman · 14-11-2003, 17:09

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Originally Posted by downquark1

Bear in mind I'm only trying to understand the terrorist mind, not agree with him. But I don't think they said 'hey let's go blow up children'. The idea is to get attention, what better than to aim a populated area in a busy period. I don't think children in particular had any part in their thinking.

This is drawing away from the topic at question which is anti-american views.

No one is doubting that acts of terroism involving bombs in public places will cause loss of life indiscriminatly and those involved should be hung. Maybe these views warrant a thread on thier own to be discussed.

downquark1 · 14-11-2003, 17:17

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Originally Posted by towny

I don't know whether I am saddened or sickened by this. What I am sure of is that your reputation, as far as I'm concerned, should not be green.

I'm confused by this response

etccarmageddon · 14-11-2003, 17:53

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Originally Posted by Jerrek

It is so funny how you call it "illegal," as if there is some law regarding war.

there are the geneva conventions.

etccarmageddon · 14-11-2003, 17:57

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Originally Posted by scastle

True, the Media do tend to play up the death of Children. Children do seem to be more important to this society than adults.

However, if the IRA bombs either a shopping centre or a major department store (especially at Christmas), it is a fair bet they were aiming to hurt some kids, is it not?

yes and as the IRA considered it a war then isnt that a war crime to target civilians - geneva convention 4.

Ramrod · 14-11-2003, 18:11

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Originally Posted by downquark1

I call it a diabolical act of terriorism perpatrated by people who feel they have been driven to such measures or conditioned to do so.

Oh and add to my list of reasons for opinion:
The us seek immunity from warcrimes. If no crimes are commited why do they need immunity

I was rather hoping drwadd would answer that one but he seems to be ignoring it....
Here's a thought: If I was cut up on a road by another car and insulted by the other driver even though it was his fault, would it be reasonable for me to go round to his place and kill his dog and put a brick through his window?
Not really....so why is it deemed reasonable by some members of this forum that terorists fly planes into buildings because they are pi**ed off with the USA?

downquark1 · 14-11-2003, 18:25

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Originally Posted by Ramrod

I was rather hoping drwadd would answer that one but he seems to be ignoring it....
Here's a thought: If I was cut up on a road by another car and insulted by the other driver even though it was his fault, would it be reasonable for me to go round to his place and kill his dog and put a brick through his window?
Not really....so why is it deemed reasonable by some members of this forum that terorists fly planes into buildings because they are pi**ed off with the USA?

I don't deem it reasonable I deem it to have a reason - valid or not it's there.

Me and Dr. Wadd seem to be the only people who see things in shades of grey rather than Black and white. It is obvious that to some people it seems reasonable because it actually happened - ie by the people who saw reason. Reason is relative, one person's is different from the others. I do not think that terriorists are the Devil incarnate that people are making them out to be, they are severly misguided people

**Chris** · 14-11-2003, 18:43

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Originally Posted by handyman

This is drawing away from the topic at question which is anti-american views.

No one is doubting that acts of terroism involving bombs in public places will cause loss of life indiscriminatly and those involved should be hung. Maybe these views warrant a thread on thier own to be discussed.

On the contrary I think it's exactly on-topic HM. I think the view that the USA 'had it coming' with regards to the events of 9/11 is pretty blatant anti-Americanism, and part of the 'agenda' of some people in this thread has been to hide that by attempting to justify (or at least explain away) the actions of the terrorists.

In trying to pin down some of the logical consequences of such a line of argument we have strayed into terrorism more generally, and other specific examples of it - the IRA, for instance - but always with one eye on the important question: What is really behind the anti-war, anti-America and anti-Bush sentiments being expressed?

Ramrod · 14-11-2003, 18:44

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Originally Posted by downquark1

I don't deem it reasonable I deem it to have a reason - valid or not it's there.

Me and Dr. Wadd seem to be the only people who see things in shades of grey rather than Black and white. It is obvious that to some people it seems reasonable because it actually happened - ie by the people who saw reason. Reason is relative, one person's is different from the others. I do not think that terriorists are the Devil incarnate that people are making them out to be, they are severly misguided people

Well put!
I do see things in shades of grey. I just happen to think that 9/11 is a black and white situation.
Another thing thats winding me up here is that terrorists actions are being examined in a 'shades of grey' way here but the USA is being given the 'black or white' treatment.

14-11-2003, 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I was rather hoping drwadd would answer that one but he seems to be ignoring it....
Here's a thought: If I was cut up on a road by another car and insulted by the other driver even though it was his fault, would it be reasonable for me to go round to his place and kill his dog and put a brick through his window?
Not really....so why is it deemed reasonable by some members of this forum that terorists fly planes into buildings because they are pi**ed off with the USA?

Some of us simply aren`t sitting on the forum 24/7.

I don`t think you'll find anyone has said it was reasonable, merely that it was undertandable why someone would do it.

As Downquark pointed out, you can't look at the world in absolutes, there is no black & white, it is all shades of grey. You can`t look at an event without examining the wider context behind the event. The inability to see events from someone else's point of view is symptomatic of the arrogant attitude of some that we are somehow the good guys and they are the evil enemy. It's all cause and effect, and these are merely the effects of the actions of the west. It is time that people started examining the attitudes of the west in the context of the world as a whole.

darkangel · 14-11-2003, 18:53

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Originally Posted by etccarmageddon

yes and as the IRA considered it a war then isnt that a war crime to target civilians - geneva convention 4.

the Geneva convention does not apply unless there is a formal declaration of war i belive

darkangel · 14-11-2003, 19:01

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Originally Posted by Jerrek

Israel is the same. They don't target civilians.

can u explain the deliberate shelling by Israel of a UN base in Lebanon killing scores of civilians

Ramrod · 14-11-2003, 19:11

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Originally Posted by dr wadd

Some of us simply aren`t sitting on the forum 24/7.

I don`t think you'll find anyone has said it was reasonable, merely that it was undertandable why someone would do it.

As Downquark pointed out, you can't look at the world in absolutes, there is no black & white, it is all shades of grey. You can`t look at an event without examining the wider context behind the event. The inability to see events from someone else's point of view is symptomatic of the arrogant attitude of some that we are somehow the good guys and they are the evil enemy. It's all cause and effect, and these are merely the effects of the actions of the west. It is time that people started examining the attitudes of the west in the context of the world as a whole.

Nothing wrong with examening the wider context behind events. I think that if you are talking about cause and effect then the effect was out of all proportion to the cause (at least in the 9/11 and even Bali bomb cases)
No ammount of apologism can change the fact that the acts carried out by those terrorists were obcsene and there can be no excuse for them. There are no shades of gray in an act like that.

*edit*
So you see 9/11 as 'understandable'?
Ok, does anyone here know exactly why they did it?

Jerrek · 14-11-2003, 19:56

There are no shades of gray in an act like that.

Amen. Let us say that again: There are no shades of gray in an act like that.

downquark1 · 14-11-2003, 19:57

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I think that if you are talking about cause and effect then the effect was out of all proportion to the cause (at least in the 9/11 and even Bali bomb cases)

If I nudge my glass it will fall off the table, break and stain the carpet, much much more than my little nudge. No body said that cause and affect had to be equal.

Whoose fault is the mess?

Quote:

*edit*
So you see 9/11 as 'understandable'?
Ok, does anyone here know exactly why they did it?

No not at all but people don't kill themselves likely. I can't for the life of me figure out football hulagism's motives, but they are there.