Should Scotland Devolve Completely?

[Pierre]

I always find it amusing that at a time as we're marching blindly towards a federal Europe, people in the UK would want to break up the Union.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I always find it amusing that at a time as we're marching blindly towards a federal Europe, people in the UK would want to break up the Union.

Was that your 2 Euro cents worth Pierre?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I always find it amusing that at a time as we're marching blindly towards a federal Europe, people in the UK would want to break up the Union.

Perhaps they feel they'll benefit more from the EU as smaller states.

---------- Post added at 12:51 ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 ----------

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

Was that your 2 Euro cents worth Pierre?

It would have been once upon a time but Sterling buys a lot less Euros than it did......

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I always find it amusing that at a time as we're marching blindly towards a federal Europe, people in the UK would want to break up the Union.

It's all a case of xenophobia. Elitist English want rid of the Scots and Welsh, old-school Welsh traditionalists want rid of the English and Scots stuck in the past want rid of the English too (N Ireland is a different matter...).

In an ideal world I'd like to see Wales independent from the rest of the UK but it's never going to happen, those in the WA are stuck in a 1920's "boyo" mentality and would never be able to run the country so let's stick to what we know and keep the United Kingdom 'united'.

[LondonRoad]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I always find it amusing that at a time as we're marching blindly towards a federal Europe, people in the UK would want to break up the Union.

SNP supporters don't see the irony of their "independence in Europe" being a contradiction. The UK has lost a lot of their sovereign rights in Europe and that continues as a pace. The ability of the UK to fight it's corner within Europe would be severly diluted if we separated.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Russ

Tell me which powers you think the WA has.

The powers of the WA are set out here:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006..._20060032_en_1

and

http://www.assemblywales.org/bus-hom...n-guidance.htm

Amonst many other places.

I think I've made the rest of my point as clear as I can several times now so I won't bother doing so again. Personally I don't care what powers Wales has or whether the WA cares to use those powers which have been devolved to them.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Osem

The powers of the WA are set out here:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006..._20060032_en_1

and

http://www.assemblywales.org/bus-hom...n-guidance.htm

Amonst many other places.

I think I've made the rest of my point as clear as I can several times now so I won't bother doing so again. Personally I don't care what powers Wales has or whether the WA cares to use those powers which have been devolved to them.

Ok and the killer fact? Every decision the WA makes has to be agreed to by Westminster, it's called "legislative competence".

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Russ

Ok and the killer fact? Every decision the WA makes has to be agreed to by Westminster, it's called "legislative competence".

That's irrelevant. The original point at issue here was the question of MPs from Scotland, Wales etc. having the right to routinely vote on English matters when English MPs do not routinely enjoy that same right in those places. That's very different from the power the UK GOVERNMENT in Westminster at any given time has to control what the WA gets up to.

[EBD3000]

I don't think the union should be split up. We're all stronger together. We all punch above our weights in international manners.

They'd be a few other problems than have already been discussed -

1) Each of the new countries would have to renegotiate all of the UK's treaties with the EU. Although likely entry into the EU might not be automatic.
2) Each of the new countries would have to renegotiate all the UK's treaties with all the other countries in the world.

The treaties wouldn't just automatically move over to the new independent countries = expensive.

3) Would the Scottish government really want to rely on the taxes of the revenue of a depleting resource (oil & gas) which will lower over time.
4) Scotland, Wales and NI would lose influence in the UN by not have a permanent seat in the security council. England may retain it but might not.
5) England may stay in the G8 but Scotland, Wales and NI wouldn't be so would lose the ability to discuss issues with the major players on an even(ish) standing.

On a positive note Gordon brown could not be the English PM as his constituency is in Scotland. However it’s a price too high.

[Russ]

The UK government is made up of Welsh, Scottish, English and N Irish MPs...

If they wanted to be stubborn, the English MPs could prevent any of the WA's proposals. Highly unlikely to ever happen but it shows the fallacy in the idea that Welsh MPs have a say in England but English minister don't have input in to Wales.

Originally Posted by EBD3000

I don't think the union should be split up. We're all stronger together. We all punch above our weights in international manners.

They'd be a few other problems than have already been discussed -

1) Each of the new countries would have to renegotiate all of the UK's treaties with the EU. Although likely entry into the EU might not be automatic.
2) Each of the new countries would have to renegotiate all the UK's treaties with all the other countries in the world.

The treaties wouldn't just automatically move over to the new independent countries = expensive.

3) Would the Scottish government really want to rely on the taxes of the revenue of a depleting resource (oil & gas) which will lower over time.
4) Scotland, Wales and NI would lose influence in the UN by not have a permanent seat in the security council. England may retain it but might not.
5) England may stay in the G8 but Scotland, Wales and NI wouldn't be so would lose the ability to discuss issues with the major players on an even(ish) standing.

On a positive note Gordon brown could not be the English PM as his constituency is in Scotland. However it’s a price too high.

What you're describing would only happen if the Union were to be completely dissolved all at once. If any part of the current UK ever breaks off - and I don't think that's nearly as likely as some nationalists want us to think - then it would be for the breakaway part to renegotiate treaties, apply to join the EU, etc etc. The UK, meanwhile, would continue to exist, complete with membership of the EU, seat at the UNSC, etc.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Russ

The UK government is made up of Welsh, Scottish, English and N Irish MPs...

If they wanted to be stubborn, the English MPs could prevent any of the WA's proposals. Highly unlikely to ever happen but it shows the fallacy in the idea that Welsh MPs have a say in England but English minister don't have input in to Wales.

Now you're digressing from the original point. The only way English MP's could force change on the WA would be for them to force a change in Government policy and the relevant law pertaining to the WA. Whilst numerically they could do that in theory by bringing down the government, as could the electorate on poling day, that is NOT the same thing as having the opportunity to VOTE on matters in those areas were the WA has been devolved decision making powers.

Some interesting comments from leading Euro-experts and academics on the likelihood of a breakaway Scotland getting automatic, seamless entry into the EU:

Originally Posted by The Scotsman, 8 January 2007

THE SNP's case for independence was dealt a damaging blow last night when the European Commission and senior academics challenged the Nationalists' core assumption - that an independent Scotland would automatically become a member of the European Union. The EC stressed that Scotland's entry as a member state would have to be "negotiated" and would not be the "seamless" transition the SNP has claimed.

http://news.scotsman.com/scottishind...try.3335953.jp

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Osem

Now you're digressing from the original point. The only way English MP's could force change on the WA would be for them to force a change in Government policy and the relevant law pertaining to the WA.

Force a change? All they have to do is raise objections to whatever the WA is asking for.

[EBD3000]

Originally Posted by Chris

What you're describing would only happen if the Union were to be completely dissolved all at once. If any part of the current UK ever breaks off - and I don't think that's nearly as likely as some nationalists want us to think - then it would be for the breakaway part to renegotiate treaties, apply to join the EU, etc etc. The UK, meanwhile, would continue to exist, complete with membership of the EU, seat at the UNSC, etc.

True, I was just stating the worst case scenario. It'd still be true for the individual country that left the union.

Anyway I thinks its a moot point as Scotland is likely to be still part of the union in 100 years.

Let the SNP have its referendum so the topic can be put to bed either way.