Scientists find 'marker' left by Big Bang

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

For a more recent example of research dismissed by scientists as not fitting in with the "scientific expectations of the era", consider the example of cold fusion.

Remember cold fusion? Gained notoriety in 1989 when brought to the worlds attention by two of the world's leading electrochemists Martin Fleishchmann and Stanely Pons. Later found to be unproven.
Ridiculed and jeered at by science folk ever since. Snake oil, touch it and your career in science might just be over.
Remember?

Well, have a read here
The E-Cat is Andrea Rossi's cold fusion reactor. Andrea has a rather dubious past, but his work has attracted a lot of interest, though not from mainstream science.
Research has continued into cold fusion, and some physicists are saying its a genuine phenomenon, just one that's still not understood. If true its the scientific breakthrough of the century. What is being claimed, is that nickel catalyst is being transmuted into copper, through an unknown nuclear process (involving H+ protons) resulting in the release of megawatts of heat, and causing the formation of copper inside the reactor (allegedly).

If this turns out to be true, then this will be quite an embarrassment for the established scientific "method", but an exciting breakthrough nonetheless.

---------- Post added at 14:45 ---------- Previous post was at 14:36 ----------

Just having a read, it now seems that Andrea Rossi has recently sold the intellectual property rights to a US energy firm.
http://www.anthropower.com/nuclear-news-5

I wonder if they'll actually develop it or just sit on it?

The guy's secrecy is the rub. A single non-peer-reviewed paper, refusal to allow independent 3rd party testing beyond this, and then results from a test where he allowed the end products to be analysed which were dubious to say the least.

Notable that in the academic paper published the end products were not analysed. Wonder why.

EDIT: Another link - http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1306/1306.6364v1.pdf Noteworthy that this 'third party testing' was done under conditions carefully controlled by Rossi and some of these 'third parties' were involved with the project before this, hence not independent.

I'd say the fact the scientific concensus is against this is an indication of how robust the scientific method is. Until this guy starts playing by the rules, allowing proper independent testing and appropriate review which complies with frankly basic scientific standards he'll continue to be reviewed with suspicion. Fantastic claims require a fantastically high standard of evidence and what has been presented so far hasn't come close.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

The guy's secrecy is the rub. A single paper, refusal to allow independent 3rd party testing beyond this, and then results from a test where he allowed the end products to be analysed which were dubious to say the least.

Notable that in the academic paper published the end products were not analysed. Wonder why.

Yes, I certainly agree there. That's the main complaint.
Perfectly understandable, but then I think so is the secrecy to a point. If you'd spent many many years and a lot of money developing something as an investment, you'd probably want to keep it secret too. Well, I think I might anyway. If the secrecy went too far, and was irrational then I'd become suspicious.

Rossi has a dilemma. On one hand (assuming he's genuine for a moment) he has some gimmick, a twist on the original cold fusion that he's developed.
How does he prove it to gain recognition (and increased its value to investors or potential buyers) without giving it away and rendering it useless as a product to control and sell? If you can't control it, then someone else can come along, perhaps change a little thing or two, or even improve it and then have control over the intellectual property rights. It depends on the nature of the E-Cat, which we don't (yet) know.

The way to do that, is not give away the design, but allow independent scientists to measure the energy coming in, and the energy leaving.
If the energy being released is higher than what can be accountable from the chemicals (namely hydrogen) being added, then he's proved there's something new going on there as that should be technically impossible. This appears to be what he's attempted to do. Whether it's a hoax or not is uncertain, but it appears he's managed to convince a number of physicists that there is a nuclear process occurring here. If its a hoax, then its an impressive one.

The US energy firm that's purchased the intellectual property rights I'm sure wouldn't have done so unless he convinced their best technical experts that he had the goods.

Personally, I don't see why the fuss has lasted so long. Its really not that difficult to measure the energy coming in and leaving in order to establish thermodynamic overunity (implying nuclear or other process). Back when I worked in nuclear fusion research (hot fusion) we used custom built calorimeters for measuring the tiniest of temperature fluctuations. The units we had were very large, like large heavily insulated coolers, used peltier junctions to cool the sample to near absolute zero, and to completely regulate the internal temperature and it was so sensitive it could measure the heat released from tritium (3H) disintegration(s) to Helium-3 and an electron (per disintegration). The heat is so miniscule there is no other way to measure it, but it was measurable.

Mass flow meters can extremely accurately measure the hydrogen mass flow , and the water boiled into steam is an easy and cheap indicator. Any electrical power being fed/consumed is easily measured.

The science blog link was an interesting read. What Ethan has posted there, is deliver conventional fusion science; repulsive forces between atomic nuclei, temperatures involved in nuclear fusion, no sign of hydrogen isotopes adding to nickel in the stars, etc etc. This is conventional thinking, however what's claimed (though not yet proven) is that there is something *new* going on. The fact that we don't have deuterium and tritium fusing at 120,000,000 deg C shouldn't be a surprise as this is not what's claimed. I think he's going a little far by saying "Right here, this very site claimed that these results were probably faked, and now we’re going to show you the physics of why these claims are definitely untrue."

Yes, as applies for conventional hot fusion, but its not and we don't really know whats supposed to be going on here because we haven't been told. All I can say is that something very clever would have to be going on to fool physicists who've tested the machine.

As an analogy, there is the example of rogue waves. Reported by sailors for centuries, denied by science up until the mid 1990's when the Draupner platform in the North Sea *measured* the Draupner Wave a massive 84 ft wave of sorts. Scientists described such waves as "1 in 10,000 year events", of course they were working on the linear model. What was claimed was *new*, a different phenomenon. Since the 1990's satellites have measured wave heights and its been found that rogue waves are everywhere. Dozens around the world at any given time. So the sailors have been right all along. Just now and again, a ship is in the wrong place at the wrong time.
If this hadn't been shown and now been known to be true, I or any of us no doubt, could go on a science blog and regurgitate the linear wave model after stating "Right here, this very site claimed that these results were probably faked, and now we’re going to show you the physics of why these claims are definitely untrue.". So I take such statements with a pinch of salt, whenever dealing with potentially new science.

I can't say I'm a believer in cold fusion, I can't be as I haven't examined this machine myself. But I'm still cautiously sitting on the bench. Though, I haven't seen anything that disproves it either.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

I can't say I'm a believer in cold fusion, I can't be as I haven't examined this machine myself. But I'm still cautiously sitting on the bench. Though, I haven't seen anything that disproves it either.

Agreed, though as per the onus is on the people making the claims to produce the evidence for them. Evidence for hot fusion is well documented.

The sloppy nature of the 'evidence' provided alongside the lack of independence evident from a number of those involved in the single published 'third party' paper doesn't bode well.

I would be ecstatic if it were the case, it'd be an incredibly good thing for the world, however given the controversy could be over in a heartbeat but Rossi seems to have ensured that no equivocal testing has been done it has to be viewed with skepticism at a bare minimum.

The simplest of tricks could have been performed to achieve his results in at least some cases - wiring the power input so that 3kW is being drawn from an unmeasured earth wire while measuring neutral and live.

[Sparkle]

Yes I agree, and if cold fusion turns out to be genuine it would be tremendously exciting indeed. It would turn the world of physics on its head.

Here's a 60 Minutes report on cold fusion you might find interesting.
Cold Fusion Hot Again

Despite the anecdotal evidence there and the respectable people lending support, old school physicists still won't take it seriously enough for a thorough investigation. As it says in the video, measuring electricity going into the apparatus is one of the most simple calculations.
Just as an example, I have a cheapo AC clamp meter (~£50), it will clamp over the live AC input and will tell me precisely what the electrical current is (by measuring the alternating magnetic field strength) of any AC cable. Multiply that value by the rms voltage and you have the total power being supplied. Or to be anal, measure the neutral also and subtract it from the live power value to yield the true energy consumption. Its not exactly rocket science, and I can hardly believe so many laboratories can be getting this wrong, and they must be getting it wrong if cold fusion/nuclear effect isn't a real phenomenon.

---------- Post added at 22:01 ---------- Previous post was at 21:11 ----------

A rather lighthearted take on cold fusion:
MIT Cold Fusion - The Revolution Has Begun !

Interesting that even MIT professors are studying this, and claiming it works.

[Sparkle]

Cold fusion reactor verified by independent researchers.
Article is dated 9th Oct, but have only just seen it this evening.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...#disqus_thread

As mentioned in the article, the final report was careful not to use LENR (low energy nuclear reaction) as the source of the excess energy, but with hydrogen loaded nickel as fuel, LENR of some form seems by far the most logical explanation. Especially considering that the energy levels recorded far exceed that possible from any chemical source. This leaves a nuclear source, or else something even more far fetched !

If this is true, I can't see why this isn't front page news.

[idi banashapan]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Cold fusion reactor verified by independent researchers.
Article is dated 9th Oct, but have only just seen it this evening.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...#disqus_thread

As mentioned in the article, the final report was careful not to use LENR (low energy nuclear reaction) as the source of the excess energy, but with hydrogen loaded nickel as fuel, LENR of some form seems by far the most logical explanation. Especially considering that the energy levels recorded far exceed that possible from any chemical source. This leaves a nuclear source, or else something even more far fetched !

If this is true, I can't see why this isn't front page news.

here is your answer(s)....

To put this into perspective, the E-Cat tested by the researchers has an energy density of 1.6×109 Wh/kg and power density of 2.1×106 W/kg. This is orders (plural) of magnitude higher than anything else ever tested — somewhere in the region of 100 times more power than the best supercapacitors, and maybe a million times more energy than gasoline. In the words of the researchers, “These values place the E-Cat beyond any other known conventional source of energy.”

Obviously, if these third-party findings are to be believed — if the E-Cat really is performing cold fusion — then this is rather exciting. We are talking about an extremely cheap, green, and dense power source that could quite literally change the world.

imagine the loss in oil revenue. the devaluation of the petro-dollar would collapse the US economy within a very short time frame if the E-Cat became global!

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by idi banashapan

imagine the loss in oil revenue. the devaluation of the petro-dollar would collapse the US economy within a very short time frame if the E-Cat became global!

If I were the main scientist. I'd walk to work. or get the brakes checked on my car.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Cold fusion reactor verified by independent researchers.
Article is dated 9th Oct, but have only just seen it this evening.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...#disqus_thread

As mentioned in the article, the final report was careful not to use LENR (low energy nuclear reaction) as the source of the excess energy, but with hydrogen loaded nickel as fuel, LENR of some form seems by far the most logical explanation. Especially considering that the energy levels recorded far exceed that possible from any chemical source. This leaves a nuclear source, or else something even more far fetched !

If this is true, I can't see why this isn't front page news.

Easy.

https://medium.com/starts-with-a-ban...d-624f15676f96

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Easy.

https://medium.com/starts-with-a-ban...d-624f15676f96

Ignitionnet mate, I'm only 1 minute into reading that "rebuttal" and I've already spotted a half dozen errors, I have no idea who the author is but the author is clearly an idiot, and I really can't be bothered to read the rest. But I'll make an effort.

I hope I'm not coming across a bit moody, as an engineer I have very little time for these know-nothing know it all pseudo-academic types (plenty of them in the science sector btw), plus I haven't yet had my morning caffeine uptake.

Okay, here goes.

1) Self-sustaining energy output, without a hookup to an external energy source.

"Three years ago, nuclear physicist Peter Thieberger diagrammed out a very simple circuit that could fool any device designed to measure the current through a wire, that I present to you below."


This point is laughable. What the author here calls a "clever circuit" is actually just common sense and common knowledge to those who understand electrics (like me). I have one of these clamp ac meters, and it clearly says on the box that only one wire must be clamped at a time otherwise the signals will cancel out, its in the instructions. There is practically zero probability a gimmick like this would fool these professional researchers. This guy must be on drugs to refer to this as a "clever circuit" and even reference its designer...jeez.

Its also completely unreasonable to expect a reaction to be completely self sustaining with no power input whatsoever, I'm nearly lost for words on that point.

2) A quality, closed-calorimeter measurement of the heat output.

Oh my God this guy is an idiot.
I have a fair amount of experience of calorimeters from my time working in the hot nuclear fusion sector, and this is not how they are used. Yes, they can detect and measure the total heat input/output (which is where the author was coming from), but they are used to detect small changes, and what difference does it make since the author clearly thinks far more electricity is going in that is being measured, so whats the point?

There is no dispute as to whether or not there is more power coming out than electrical power measured going in. If it were borderline, then in that case it might be worth spending tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars constructing a custom calorimeter capable of measuring larger amounts of power. However....

The author could do with some schooling himself on some basic mathematics. 1.5 megawatt hours is 5400000000 Joules. This is enough energy to boil nearly 2 and half TONNES of water into steam (2391.5 kg). Calorimetry? This guys on crack.

Checking for hidden wires? No mate, just check their electric bill.

Granted the reaction was run for 32 days, and that timescale could have been reduced, but to be frank, they would need to run the reaction for a long while to build up data and demonstrate consistent running.

I've just glanced over points 3, 4, and 5. And oh dear, its just more of the same (obvious mistakes, assumptions galore), I've better things to do than tear apart idiotic "skeptic" posts on the internet.

[Ignitionnet]

Checking the electric bill wasn't done as part of the experiment sadly.

I am not qualified to comment further on points 1 and 2.

I'm not sure what the assumption is in noting that no alpha, beta or gamma radiation was found.

Point 4 seems reasonable - conspicuous by its absence is the breakdown of the isotopes of copper produced.

These two are linked - either this is working by some entirely new physics, not fusion, or there's something up but the point stands. The lack of discussion of copper byproducts is a huge omission. Given this process allegedly results in copper being produced why isn't this in the results? It's easy for the cynic to think that it's because the copper produced matches natural copper in its isotope ratio and, hence, is an additive not produced by the reaction.

Point 5 likewise - these aren't independent scientists and Rossi was actively involved in the experiments.

I would love to believe that this is doable but, again, a fatally flawed experiment with too much missing. I can't see this getting past peer review for a moment.

This needs doing by genuinely independent scientists with Rossi not involved in any way and, indeed, the electricity bill being measured along with all products of the reaction detailed.

EDIT: Last time Rossi gave his products for analysis it didn't go well - https://aleklett.wordpress.com/2011/...r-new-physics/

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by idi banashapan

here is your answer(s)....





imagine the loss in oil revenue. the devaluation of the petro-dollar would collapse the US economy within a very short time frame if the E-Cat became global!

It will be buried soon enough.

[Sparkle]

Lots to say, but unfortunately I've got a full schedule today so I won't really be able to properly reply until I get time this evening.

I do agree that Rossi will need to be absent for proper scientific analysis but this is a business venture, and the tech is proprietary. Either he or a trusted associate would need to remain present to protect his interests.
To say that Rossi but absolutely be vacant whilst we operate and test his brainchild, is a bit like demanding that Uri Geller be vacant whilst we test his psychic powers. We can prove a psychic or inventor guilty of fraud even with their presence.

I did read somewhere however, that Rossi was not present for the power measurements. Which would be very significant, if true. Considering that the power measurement (particularly the electrical power going in) is the most critical factor here.

[Ignitionnet]

Well Rossi would certainly be familiar with being found guilty of fraud given his criminal record.

Looking at his history it looks horribly like this is the latest in his collection of scams.

He claimed to have invented a process to convert organic waste into oil for which, in 1978, he founded a company named Petroldragon. In the early 1990s the company was disbanded and Rossi jailed following accusations of dumping environmental toxins, as well as tax fraud.

In the US Rossi started the consulting firm Leonardo Technologies, Inc. (LTI). He secured a defense contract to evaluate the potential of generating electricity from waste heat by using thermoelectric generators. Such devices are normally only used for heating or cooling (Peltier effect), because the efficiency for generating electrical power is only a few percent. Rossi suggested that his devices could attain 20% efficiency. Larger modules would be manufactured in Italy.

Rossi sent 27 thermoelectric devices for evaluation to the Engineer Research and Development Center; 19 of these did not produce any electricity at all. The remaining units produced less than 1 watt each, instead of the expected 800–1000 watt.

I don't demand he's vacant, merely that he doesn't get to handle either the reactant or the products, and that a full analysis is done on both with complete breakdown of components and isotopes.

The one time that a complete breakdown of products was done Rossi claimed later that he'd informed the scientist in question that it had been contaminated. Said scientist made no reference to this contamination at any point and couldn't argue the point as he was dead. Worse still the part that the results questioned was exactly the part missing from the most recent experiment - copper quantity and isotope ratio.

This shouldn't be a problem, should it? Indeed proper, peer-reviewed experimental evidence may greatly assist his attempts to patent the technology.

This guy seems like a serial scammer, the E-Cat his latest scam. Really bad news for all those genuinely pursuing LENR as a technology.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Checking the electric bill wasn't done as part of the experiment sadly.

It could easily be checked retrospectively, such information is held by the power companies.

I am not qualified to comment further on points 1 and 2.

I had interpreted your "Easy." statement as such that you were vouching for that article. Fair enough.

I'm not sure what the assumption is in noting that no alpha, beta or gamma radiation was found.

Point 4 seems reasonable - conspicuous by its absence is the breakdown of the isotopes of copper produced.

These two are linked - either this is working by some entirely new physics, not fusion, or there's something up but the point stands. The lack of discussion of copper byproducts is a huge omission. Given this process allegedly results in copper being produced why isn't this in the results? It's easy for the cynic to think that it's because the copper produced matches natural copper in its isotope ratio and, hence, is an additive not produced by the reaction.

Point 5 likewise - these aren't independent scientists and Rossi was actively involved in the experiments.

I have good advice here - and you'll read it from some others on the internet too (and lots of nonsense in between). Just forget about all that other nuke stuff. All that matters in this LENR claim, is what is going in, and what is coming out - everything else is just distraction. Energy balance only.
It might take the next 100 years to figure out what is really going on, but the first thing is to determine if anything actually is going on.

Our aim is to generate energy, its precise mechanism of generation (LENR or other new source) is completely moot. We just want the power, and first we need to determine if there is another source of power not being applied (via fuel or electricity).

If some kind of fusion is occurring, then clearly it isn't hot fusion (as it can't be as we'd need over 100,000,000 deg C to even start thinking hot fusion) so one has to let go of the circumstances and nature of hot fusion. Additionally, if the mechanism is fusion, then the existing fusion models are clearly wrong or incomplete. This includes all (hot fusion) references to alpha, beta and particularly gamma radiation.

In science, observation trumps theory. Theory exists to be disproved and replaced by more refined theories at a later date. Its inevitable, especially for a civilization (I use the term loosely) that is really only just getting started in science.

The problem with a lot of academics in science, is that they are often old, and too set in their ways - they are not "out of the box" type lateral thinkers.
A good scientist should always investigate claims, not sneer at and deride and attempt to label other people with new ideas as crackpots.

They did this to many notable people in history, and the so-called scientists were wrong, such was the case with Nikola Tesla and many other successful inventors.

All hot fusion references to Rossi's machine amount to nothing more than an unnecessary side show, a distraction from the only important aspects of this over unity claim.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

This shouldn't be a problem, should it? Indeed proper, peer-reviewed experimental evidence may greatly assist his attempts to patent the technology.

I'd say that's possibly the quickest, surefire way to lose your technology to a competitor.

His work is still in the development stage, and as long as he can continue to develop his work, he probably doesn't really care too much what you, myself and many others think. There is no real rush, is there from his point of view?

This guy seems like a serial scammer, the E-Cat his latest scam. Really bad news for all those genuinely pursuing LENR as a technology.

Rossi's past is old news, it was the first thing that came up in discussions when he first announced his e-cat. A quick google will bring it all up.

He's a businessman, not a scientist. Plenty of businessmen who have a chequered history are not necessarily serial scammers. Thomas Edison was known to have scammed people (again, a businessman rather than inventor) but he is remembered for inventing many many genuine things.

I can't comment much on Rossi's business history, just the evidence we've already seen.

He's had his work independently verified. The critique I've read (so far) of that is just silly, bordering on the irrational.
Its one thing to be critical, its expected of course. Its completely another to consider everyone else involved in LENR research to be complete idiots and overlooking obvious details, whilst not even questioning one's own critique whilst making some rather obvious blunders in said critique....(in reference to my earlier critique of the rebuttal..)

This LENR claim is not just Rossi's work. There are scientists all over the world looking at this and claiming positive results.

Even NASA has said they've had good results from LENR technology.
MIT physics research students have said so as well, and many many others.

Top of the google results:
http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.co...ion-folly.html
"NASA's Cold Fusion Folly
I am sad - horrified really - to learn that some NASA scientists have caught cold fusion madness."

Of course NASA has caught cold fusion madness, after all they're just those silly people who put man on the moon...c'mon we all know the moon's made of cheese, right?

I'm still not saying the results are definitely LENR (as I've never worked on such experiments, not yet anyway). But these people can't all be that stupid. There does seem to be some really smart people who are claiming to have measured over-unity with LENR type apparatuses. Something, I believe, is going on - exactly what it is remains to be proven. Either way, I'm still intrigued.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

His work is still in the development stage, and as long as he can continue to develop his work, he probably doesn't really care too much what you, myself and many others think. There is no real rush, is there from his point of view?

He's trying to sell said work, indeed apparently tried giving a 1MW unit away in June of 2013. Seems no-one qualified - convenient.

The product has allegedly been available since November 2013, zero sales.

Here's hoping it progresses though. Fusion is our only viable long-term power source unless we can work out how to store solar.