Scores die in Israeli air strikes

Originally Posted by Maribel

Sorry mate, far too naive

Israel do not target children, or civilians. Admittedly they are not too concerned with accidental deaths in order to kill their target but, if they can, they do attempt to avoid it. If anything as a PR exercise to avoid international outcry at their actions.

I do not believe they have ever had a policy, or even hinted at a policy, to kill children. That is just evil and sick, by anyone standards. That is if it was what we meant.

[Sir John Luke]

In the interest of balance in links posted

http://frontierindia.net/israeli-pho...-human-shields

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Damien

Israel do not target children, or civilians. Admittedly they are not too concerned with accidental deaths in order to kill their target but, if they can, they do attempt to avoid it. If anything as a PR exercise to avoid international outcry at their actions.

I do not believe they have ever had a policy, or even hinted at a policy, to kill children. That is just evil and sick, by anyone standards. That is if it was what we meant.

they bomb mosques

[Sir John Luke]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

they bomb mosques

See link above for what would be Israel's response.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Sir John Luke

See link above for what would be Israel's response.

Some of us have been trying to outline that strategy for days m8. You cannot educate those who will not listen. Rest assured, the web will be red hot with peeps trying to find something to diss it.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Damien

Israel try to avoid Civilian causalities, shows a lot about Hamas that they would deliberately target children..

Israel have had no problem in the past taking out a member of Hamas in a crowded environement, say a mosque or a market place or a building, knowing full well that there will be children there. They say these deaths as acceptable casualties on their war on Hamas. Its all very well saying Hamas deliberatly stay in highly populated areas and use civilians as human shields but can someone please explain to me where they are supposed to go. Gaza is their home. Do people here actually appreciate how densely populated Gaza is?

As for freedom fighters, Hamas have been fighting a nation that was built as a result of wiping out thousands of thousands of palestinians off their land, by force and terror. They are fighting a nation who on exiting Gaza blew up the airport and the port, and bulldozing 100s of houses. They are fighting a nation who has sieged Gaza, restricting movement of ordinary cicilians, preventing them from travelling and getting work. They are fighting a nation that has contributed in what is described by the UN as a human catastrophe.

I dont remember supporters of Nelson Mandela being described as terrorists when they were burning tyres around the necks of supporters of the old White South Africa.

[frogstamper]

As far as I'm aware the ANC never came anywhere close to committing the atrocities that Hamas have committed.
Of course certain elements on the more extreme wing of the ANC did do some evil things, but the difference there was that Mandela or the ANC leadership would condemn such behaviour...hardly on a par with a terrorist organization who not so long ago were throwing members of Fatah to their deaths off of buildings in Gaza.
I'll also add that imo Israel also have carried out some dubious behaviour to say the least, as you say targeted assassinations of Hamas leaders in built up areas with little concern for civilian casualties.
In finishing I'd add both sides have blood on their hands, but to claim that Hamas are freedom fighters like the ANC is absolutely incorrect.

It's nice to know the Israeli army are using Phosphorus bombs against people in the Gaza Strip. Phosphorus bombs are Illegal under the Geneva convention if used as a weapon - must be used as a 'battlefield smokescreen' - and causes horrendous burns on impact.

But apparently it's alright to scatter it indiscriminantly over heavily populated areas in Gaza. I'm starting to hate the Israelis with a passion.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Israel have had no problem in the past taking out a member of Hamas in a crowded environement, say a mosque or a market place or a building, knowing full well that there will be children there. They say these deaths as acceptable casualties on their war on Hamas. Its all very well saying Hamas deliberatly stay in highly populated areas and use civilians as human shields but can someone please explain to me where they are supposed to go. Gaza is their home. Do people here actually appreciate how densely populated Gaza is

Those deaths are acceptable sadly, it's even recognised under international law, on the other hand presumably a lot of Israeli civilians are also legitimate targets because most are military reservists, and no I don't think people do appreciate how densely populated Gaza is, more people in one place there than anywhere else in the world.

I dont remember supporters of Nelson Mandela being described as terrorists when they were burning tyres around the necks of supporters of the old White South Africa

Actually I do, I even remember Maggie Thatcher standing up and saying they were so, the US had the ANC on their terrorist watch list to

---------- Post added at 07:03 ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

Israel try to avoid Civilian causalities, shows a lot about Hamas that they would deliberately target children..

Why is it then that they wouldn't allow critically ill cancer patients out of the country for treatment that would have saved their lives? Why is it the New York Times reported that Israeli soldiers routinely shoot Palestinian children for sport?


Even patients in need of medical treatment unavailable in Gaza, are often denied passage out of Gaza. Scores of people have died in the past year when they could have been saved if only they had been allowed to travel.

Karima Abu Dalal, a 34-year-old mother of five young children, died on 25 November. She suffered from Hodgkin’s lymphoma, a cancer of the lymph glands that is curable in more than 90 per cent of cases. She was denied access to the treatment she desperately needed as Israel refused her a permit to travel to the hospital in Nablus in the West Bank in November 2007.

In a medical report accompanying her permit request an Israeli cancer specialist had written: `This is a young woman who will die in the absence of treatment and with treatment her chances of recovery are excellent` (underlined in the original).

The Israeli authorities nonetheless refused to let her leave Gaza and the Israeli High Court of Justice refused to intervene. Earlier this year, she eventually managed to leave Gaza to Egypt as an exceptional case, but by then her condition had deteriorated irreparably and she returned to Gaza to be with her family. Subsequent requests for her to travel to Israel to receive at least palliative care to relieve her pain were in vain.

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=30394

Originally Posted by frogstamper

As far as I'm aware the ANC never came anywhere close to committing the atrocities that Hamas have committed.
Of course certain elements on the more extreme wing of the ANC did do some evil things, but the difference there was that Mandela or the ANC leadership would condemn such behaviour...hardly on a par with a terrorist organization who not so long ago were throwing members of Fatah to their deaths off of buildings in Gaza.
I'll also add that imo Israel also have carried out some dubious behaviour to say the least, as you say targeted assassinations of Hamas leaders in built up areas with little concern for civilian casualties.
In finishing I'd add both sides have blood on their hands, but to claim that Hamas are freedom fighters like the ANC is absolutely incorrect.

To be honest one man's freedom fighter will be a terrorist in another's eyes.

Some former freedom fighters have done some pretty awful things but because they 'won' those do become 'collateral damage' on the way to 'freedom'.

Perceptions can change very conveniently at times...

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Israel have had no problem in the past taking out a member of Hamas in a crowded environement, say a mosque or a market place or a building, knowing full well that there will be children there. They say these deaths as acceptable casualties on their war on Hamas. Its all very well saying Hamas deliberatly stay in highly populated areas and use civilians as human shields but can someone please explain to me where they are supposed to go. Gaza is their home. Do people here actually appreciate how densely populated Gaza is?

.

Well what is the alternative for Israel? Hamas store there weapons In highly populated areas so they should be left alone? Maybe the ground offensive is better in this respect so they do not need to bomb houses.

Hamas don't just use public places, they like to use ones like Mosques and hospitals because of the sensitive nature of the target.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well what is the alternative for Israel? Hamas store there weapons In highly populated areas so they should be left alone? Maybe the ground offensive is better in this respect so they do not need to bomb houses.

Hamas don't just use public places, they like to use ones like Mosques and hospitals because of the sensitive nature of the target.

Do we have any proof that Hamas stockpile arms in mosques or hospitals? To me it seems like Israel is saying everyone in Gaza is a justifiable target.

Going on from previous posts about Terrorists versus Freedom Fighters, one has to remember that Israels actions, coupled with the inaction of the rest of the world, originally gave birth to these groups. Israel used terror tactics and aggression to drive out muslim arabs from their own land and then settling on the land themselves. Anyone who things that this was a peaceful transition or the arabs agreed to this with open arms would need their heads examining.

Going on from previous posts about Terrorists versus Freedom Fighters, one has to remember that Israels actions, coupled with the inaction of the rest of the world, originally gave birth to these groups. Israel used terror tactics and aggression to drive out muslim arabs from their own land and then settling on the land themselves. Anyone who things that this was a peaceful transition or the arabs agreed to this with open arms would need their heads examining.

Ok, Everyone always states that the Arabs were pushed out. They were, but it's not as simple as some suggest. At the time before Israel there were already a significant amount of Jews in the region and something had to be done. There was no 'country' as such, there was the British mandate of Palestine.

The UN proposed they share the land: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Partition_Plan

It was rejected. The Arabs started to attack Jewish targets and eventually the war occurred and the Palestinians were forced out and barred entry to the Arab counties that claimed to care about them, Jordon even decided to annex a part of the land. Now obviously Israel have done a lot of bad then and since. However the idea that the Israelis forced them all out is unfair, there was a fair proposition on the table to share the land and it was the Arabs, not the Jews, who rejected it.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...hepalestinians

All very well saying what do you expect Israel to do when being shelled with rockets. Here is an example of how Israeli soldiers have been treating Palestinians as recently as last year.

[jamiefrost]

looks like Blair has finaly chipped in, must taking a break from the lecture circuit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7813067.stm

So everthing will be sorted out now

JJ