Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[Sir John Luke]

It is perhaps worth noting that, according to the Hamas founding charter, they are fighting to retain lands conquered by the muslims.

"Article Eleven: The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. This [norm] has prevailed since the commanders of the Muslim armies completed the conquest of Syria and Iraq, and they asked the Caliph of Muslims, ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, for his view of the conquered land, whether it should be partitioned between the troops or left in the possession of its population, or otherwise. Following discussions and consultations between the Caliph of Islam, ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, be peace and prayer upon him, they decided that the land should remain in the hands of its owners to benefit from it and from its wealth; but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine, is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators."

I think it would be more surprising if Hamas didn't think they could justify their aim of re-taking all the land as Palestinian territory. But that simply serves to underline the point I was aiming at wee chaos - whatever Hamas are, they aren't 'freedom fighters'.

Originally Posted by chaos23

I try to take in all viewpoints, even those which challenge my preconceptions.

Yet another falsehood.

Whilst I admire your passion in your beliefs, you're new to this debating lark, it seems to me.

Just saying "no" or "yet another falsehood" or "open your eyes" or "you are all sheeple being fooled by the zionist/illuminati/one-world-government/US Government/single currency/please fill in conspiracy du jour" without actually providing back-up evidence (not from other conspiracy nuts or single-viewpoint websites), just makes you seem as if, how can I put this, you are perhaps a little lacking in intellectual rigour.

I disagree with some of Sir John Luke's viewpoints (and agree with others), but at least his responses are reasoned, not snarky and vituperative (imho) - you would make a lot more friends on this Forum if you realised that disagreement isn't personal, it's just a difference of opinion.

[chaos23]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Whilst I admire your passion in your beliefs, you're new to this debating lark, it seems to me.

Just saying "no" or "yet another falsehood" or "open your eyes" or "you are all sheeple being fooled by the zionist/illuminati/one-world-government/US Government/single currency/please fill in conspiracy du jour" without actually providing back-up evidence (not from other conspiracy nuts or single-viewpoint websites), just makes you seem as if, how can I put this, you are perhaps a little lacking in intellectual rigour.

I disagree with some of Sir John Luke's viewpoints (and agree with others), but at least his responses are reasoned, not snarky and vituperative (imho) - you would make a lot more friends on this Forum if you realised that disagreement isn't personal, it's just a difference of opinion.

Oh i see, Deluding yourself again. I am not looking to make friends. I wont stand by while people spout thier Zionist propaganda on here and while innocent women and children are shreaded to bits by Israeli superweapons. Lets not forget who broke the cease fire, a point which you convieniently ignore.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9937.shtml

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/Ne...rnational.nasd


http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=75893

[icestar2]

Originally Posted by chaos23

Oh i see, Deluding yourself again. I am not looking to make friends. I wont stand by while people spout thier Zionist propaganda on here

These kind of responses are exactly the problem chaos.

Originally Posted by icestar2

These kind of responses are exactly the problem chaos.

As is linking to sites such as this one as 'proof'.

Originally Posted by chaos23

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9937.shtml

Aghhh Ignore him, he is only interested in his conspiracy. Anyway.

Credit to Sarkozy for taking some initiative on this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rael-ceasefire

Same as Russia, Nice having someone who is not tainted by anti-Western feeling that is willing to attempt to work towards a balanced and fair peace. I think it may be countries like France, and hopefully a more considered America, that could act as deal makers in any peace talks.

Both sides must be getting tired of this.

[icestar2]

Originally Posted by Damien

Aghhh Ignore him, he is only interested in his conspiracy. Anyway.

Does anyone think there is a way to stop Israel? Who would they listen too, I imagine if the US was more forcible they might back down. Loads of Palestinians killed, this whole thing is going to be seriously damaging politics in the Middle east for ages

But what can be done when the two sides hate each other ? I know people are saying there need to be talk's and ceasefire's but they never last one side or the other always kick's things off again.

Glad I am not a politician in todays age.

[Sir John Luke]

Originally Posted by Damien

Aghhh Ignore him, he is only interested in his conspiracy. Anyway.

Credit to Sarkozy for taking some initiative on this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rael-ceasefire

Same as Russia, Nice having someone who is not tainted by anti-Western feeling that is willing to attempt to work towards a balanced and fair peace. I think it may be countries like France, and hopefully a more considered America, that could act as deal makers in any peace talks.

Both sides must be getting tired of this.

Looks like Turkey could also play an important role in any discussions with Hamas.

[SMG]

Originally Posted by chaos23

I wont stand by while people spout thier Zionist propaganda on here and while innocent women and children are shreaded to bits by Israeli superweapons.

OK So you wont stand by, what are you going to do then?

Please post your proof regarding Israli "Superweapons" & women & children "shredded to bits".

Originally Posted by Sir John Luke

Looks like Turkey could also play an important role in any discussions with Hamas.

Maybe, I like the idea of France because they have good credibility (as far as I am aware) on both sides.

[icestar2]

I cant see this ever ending tbh. Just come accross the following article. Why does it have to be the children that suffer ? Thats what annoys me the most.

As fighting intensified on the northern outskirts of Gaza City today, a top Hamas leader broke cover to warn Israel that the Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for their own young who have died in the devastating assault.

“They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine,” said Mahmoud Zahar, in a televised broadcast recorded at a secret location. “They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5454204.ece

So innocent children anywere in the world who have nothing to do with the conflict who's parents may have even moved with them because of these types of conflicts which they want nothing to do with are at risk.

To me it shows that there is never likely going to be a solution to this conflict.

Israel try to avoid Civilian causalities, shows a lot about Hamas that they would deliberately target children..

[Maribel]

Originally Posted by Damien

Israel try to avoid Civilian causalities, shows a lot about Hamas that they would deliberately target children..

Sorry mate, far too naive

[SMG]

Originally Posted by Maribel

Sorry mate, far too naive

Please explain why?