Saddam Hussein Executed

Originally Posted by Escapee

You just need to look at how these people act in these countries compared to countries in Europe etc.

In 1900, the British introduced the first modern use of concentration camps.
First World War in Europe - 8 million military and 5 million civilian deaths.
The USSR/Russia killed 62 million people between 1917-1987.
Germany killed 21 million people between 1933-1945.
Some of the European Baltic States seem to indulge in tribal warfare/genocide (Serbia, Croatia, etc).

We need to be careful with the statement "these people", as European history seems to consist of a few of "these people".

Originally Posted by Escapee

These countries will never have peace, they will always be at war with each other, to expect the toppling of one dictator to solve the countries problems just will not happen. Within time Iraq will stand on its own two feet again, and further down the line when the west looses interest it will probably end up again being run by some other dictator killing his enemies.

Do we really think these countries value a life at the same level as a life is valued in the UK.

Before everyone has a go at me or twisting what I am pointing out, just look at the actions of the people in places like Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Israel, Lebanon etc. I was flamed before for saying these countries are third world countries, its nothing to do with the technology they have but everything to do with the attitude in these countries.

Life is not important but religion is.

Escapee, you need to read your history regarding "these countries" and "these people", as you stated above "These countries will never have peace, they will always be at war with each other". It was the United Nations/League of Nations, led by the US, UK, and France, that set up most of these countries, shoe-horning different tribes and ethnicities into artificial constructs to suit the UK/UK/France's political and economic requirements at the time.

Israel - Proposed, set up and initially administered by Great Britain in the 20th Century. Over three quarters of Israelis are European/American immigrants or their children or grand-children. Makes a bit of a mockery of your "these people" statement, doesn't it?
In 1917, the British Foreign Secretary Arthur J. Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration that "viewed with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." In 1920, Palestine became a League of Nationsmandate administered by Britain. And of Israel's 7.1 million people, 76% were Jews, 20% Arabs, and 4% "others". Among Jews, 68% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim: 22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries.

Iraq - Set up initially administered by Great Britain in the 20th Century.
During World War I, the British and French divided the Middle East in the Sykes-Picot Agreement. The Treaty of Sèvres which was ratified by Treaty of Lausanne led to the creation of the modern Middle East and Republic of Turkey. The League of Nations granted France mandates over the Syria and the Lebanon and granted the United Kingdom mandates over the Iraq and the Palestine (which was comprised of two autonomous regions: Palestine and Transjordan). Parts of the Ottoman Empire on the Arabian Peninsula became parts of what are today Saudi Arabia and Yemen. During the British mandate, the country was ruled by British colonial administrators who used the British armed forces to put down rebellions against the government. They selected the Hashemite king, Faisal, who had been forced out of Syria by the French, to be their client ruler.

Iran - The Shah was put in power by the UK/US, and his dictatorial behaviour led to the Iranian revolution in 1979.
In 1951, an eccentric pro-democratic nationalist, Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh rose to prominence in Iran and was elected Prime Minister. As Prime Minister, Mossadegh alarmed the West by his nationalization of Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (later British Petroleum, BP) that had controlled the country's oil reserves. In response, Britain immediately embargoed Iran. Soon after, members of the British Intelligence Service invited the United States to join them in covertly overthrowing the democratically-elected Mossadegh. Initially, United States President Harry S. Truman refused, but after Dwight D. Eisenhower was elected the British proposed the plan again. After convincing Eisenhower that Mossadegh was sympatheic to communism (even though he was an avowed anti-communist), the United States agreed to assist Britain in Operation Ajax. President Eisenhower authorized the CIA to take the lead in the operation of overthrowing Mossadegh and supporting a US/Israeli-friendly monarch. The operation was successful in triggering a coup, and within days, pro-Shah tanks stormed the capital and bombarded the Prime Minister's residence. Mossadegh surrendered, and was arrested on 19 August 1953. He was tried for treason, and sentenced to three years in prison. Mohammad Reza Pahlavi's rule became increasingly autocratic in the following years. With strong support from the US and UK, the Shah further modernized Iranian industry, but simultaneously crushed all forms of political opposition with his intelligence agency, SAVAK. 1979 saw an increase in protests against the Shah, culminating in the Iranian Revolution. The Shah fled the country again, after which Khomeini returned from exile on February 1, 1979 and eventually succeeded in taking power.

Lebanon - Set up and administered by the French in the 20th Century.
This area became a part of the French Mandate of Syria. On September 1, 1920, France formed the State of Greater Lebanon as one of several ethnic enclaves within Syria. Lebanon was a largely Christian (mainly Maronite) enclave but also included areas containing many Muslims and Druzes. On September 1, 1926, France formed the Lebanese Republic. The Republic was afterward a separate entity from Syria but still administered under the French Mandate for Syria. 40% of the Lebanese are Christian. Until the Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990), the country enjoyed relative calm and prosperity, driven by the tourism, agriculture, and banking sectors of the economy. It was considered the banking capital of the Arab world and was widely known as the "Switzerland of the Middle East" due to its financial power. Lebanon also attracted large numbers of tourists, to the point that the capital Beirut became widely referred to as the "Paris of the Middle East."

Pakistan - Less said about the fall-out from the British Empire in the Indian sub-continent, the better, I think.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Saddams execution - A muslim point of view

Most muslims I know happen to be Sunni muslims. We all feel that Saddam should have been tried for his trial and if the outcome is death then so be it. No one disputes that he is guilty of horrific crimes against his own people, and fellow muslims and for that he should be punished.

The thing which was upsetting for us was the manner in which he died and the timing. The month of Hajj is one of the most sacred in the Islamic calender, both to Sunni and Shiite Muslims. Altho he was executed before the day of Eid Ul Adha (which is the 10th of the islamic month), the fact that he was executed in this month left a feeling of sadness and disgust at fellow muslims who carried out the executuon.

Additionally he was not able to recite the full Shahadat (Islamic Oath) and the trap door was opened mid way through. This is especially distasteful considering the punishment was carried out by muslims.

People will argue that Saddam offered no compassion to the Kurds that he killed, to the Shiites he killed, to all the innocent lives he took. But if the government that has replaced his is supposed to be a better one, than offering him that dignity/compassion at his time of death would have been the best way of showing that the govt in Iraq is a lot better than Saddams.

His execution has been witnessed by millions of muslims worldwide and from an Islamic perspective I think the image of the government in Iraq has been severely damaged. Its ironic that the death of such an evil dictator has elevated his status over the democratically elected govt thats replaced him, but this could have been avoided with a bit more thoughtfulness as regard to the timing and the manner of the execution.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

<snip>

Top post, but I doubt the people in Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia will be pleased...

Originally Posted by foreverwar

European Baltic States seem to indulge in tribal warfare/genocide (Serbia, Croatia, etc).

[punky]

Originally Posted by Gareth

Here's an interesting article from the Grauniad about the whole Saddam GooTube affair...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1981081,00.html

Saddam was courageous? Poxy Guardian. That's absolutely pathetic.

Disgusting article. The author may have wet dreams of being with Saddam but any reasonable person wouldn't. Who wrote it anyway, Galloway?

[The Jackal]

Agreed good post " foreverwar ".

I'm outa this thread I've spent my 2 cents.

[Gareth]

Originally Posted by Gavin

Saddam was courageous? Poxy Guardian. That's absolutely pathetic.

Disgusting article. The author may have wet dreams of being with Saddam but any reasonable person wouldn't. Who wrote it anyway, Galloway?

I disagree, mate. Now, firstly I have to say that I'm no fan of Saddam. However, I saw the sanitized version of the execution as it was shown on the news, and didn't really think anything of it. Then I started hearing how it didn't happen anything like the Iraqi government were trying to portray, and after thinking about it for a while, I viewed the "mobile phone" copy on GooTube.

I think he did maintain a sense of courage right until the trapdoor was opened.

I also agree with the points that SLM has made earlier about the timing of the execution, the manner in which it was handled, etc... Those performing the event did not do anything to improve the perception of the Iraqi government's handling of the whole affair.

Maybe it has something to do with me being against capital punishment, but even if this is what the Iraqis chose as Saddam's fate, I think there are ways of doing it that can demonstrate that society is 'better' than the person they are supposed to be punishing.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Gavin

Saddam was courageous? Poxy Guardian. That's absolutely pathetic.

Disgusting article. The author may have wet dreams of being with Saddam but any reasonable person wouldn't. Who wrote it anyway, Galloway?

Good people don't have a monopoly on courage and I have to say from what I have heard about it, he was a lot more dignified than his executioners

[punky]

Originally Posted by Gareth

I think he did maintain a sense of courage right until the trapdoor was opened.

I have a different take on courage though mate. To me, courage is running into a burning house to save the life of someone, especially if you aren't related. Not being executed for massacring thousands of lives, along with other assorted war crimes.

Courage is doing something dangerous or hard when there is an option of an easier route. Saddam was going to be executed regardless.

Maybe it has something to do with me being against capital punishment, but even if this is what the Iraqis chose as Saddam's fate, I think there are ways of doing it that can demonstrate that society is 'better' than the person they are supposed to be punishing.

It goes back (a little) to what Escapee was saying. Shortly after the country fell, the police service was filled with newly-trained Shiite recruits (long before insurgents infiltrated the police force). Ones that should remember, and be able to learn from Saddam & his sons' tyranny. They promptly started torturing anyone they rounded up. The replacements were as bad as the people they were replacing.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Gavin

It goes back (a little) to what Escapee was saying. Shortly after the country fell, the police service was filled with newly-trained Shiite recruits (long before insurgents infiltrated the police force). Ones that should remember, and be able to learn from Saddam & his sons' tyranny. They promptly started torturing anyone they rounded up. The replacements were as bad as the people they were replacing.

So where now for Iraq. When do we step in again to change the regime? Or is a puppet Shiite governemnt better than an out of control Sunni one.

What do I see in Iraq in 10 years from now? The country split into 4, Sunnis in one bit, Kurds in another and the ****es in another. The 4th part would be the oilfields under control of the Allied nations.

[Gareth]

Yeah, maybe courage isn't the most appropriate word... TheDaddy's use of dignified is probably more apt.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

So where now for Iraq. When do we step in again to change the regime? Or is a puppet Shiite governemnt better than an out of control Sunni one.

What do I see in Iraq in 10 years from now? The country split into 4, Sunnis in one bit, Kurds in another and the ****es in another. The 4th part would be the oilfields under control of the Allied nations.

I've always said split it into 3 (or 4 as you say, or 5 if you & Turkey want to include Kurdistan). Sunnis and Shiites have been warring for 1,300 years so I think it will be a long while before they can live together peacefully, if ever. The Kurds, I don't know much about, by my intrepretation of them is they just sit by and watch the other two destroy each other.

If my knowlege of Iraq is correct, A big circle was drawn around all these completely incompatible tribes (by Britain/League Of Nations?) and said "We'll call it Iraq". The first step to sorting it is reversing that. If you have two kids who really won't play nicely together, what is the point of endlessly pushing them?

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

and the ****es in another.

LOL! Did Gavin edit that (it says 'last edited by Gavin' on SLM's post)? I am guessing SLM meant shiites (with double i)...

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by danielf

LOL! Did Gavin edit that (it says 'last edited by Gavin' on SLM's post)? I am guessing SLM meant shiites (with double i)...

Yep I meant Shiites, altho some of those present at the execution could have been appropriately described as Shiites with only the one I.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

In 1900, the British introduced the first modern use of concentration camps.
First World War in Europe - 8 million military and 5 million civilian deaths.
The USSR/Russia killed 62 million people between 1917-1987.
Germany killed 21 million people between 1933-1945.
Some of the European Baltic States seem to indulge in tribal warfare/genocide (Serbia, Croatia, etc).

We need to be careful with the statement "these people", as European history seems to consist of a few of "these people".



Escapee, you need to read your history regarding "these countries" and "these people", as you stated above "These countries will never have peace, they will always be at war with each other". It was the United Nations/League of Nations, led by the US, UK, and France, that set up most of these countries, shoe-horning different tribes and ethnicities into artificial constructs to suit the UK/UK/France's political and economic requirements at the time.

Israel - Proposed, set up and initially administered by Great Britain in the 20th Century. Over three quarters of Israelis are European/American immigrants or their children or grand-children. Makes a bit of a mockery of your "these people" statement, doesn't it?
In 1917, the British Foreign Secretary Arthur J. Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration that "viewed with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." In 1920, Palestine became a League of Nationsmandate administered by Britain. And of Israel's 7.1 million people, 76% were Jews, 20% Arabs, and 4% "others". Among Jews, 68% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim: 22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries.

Iraq - Set up initially administered by Great Britain in the 20th Century.
During World War I, the British and French divided the Middle East in the Sykes-Picot Agreement. The Treaty of Sèvres which was ratified by Treaty of Lausanne led to the creation of the modern Middle East and Republic of Turkey. The League of Nations granted France mandates over the Syria and the Lebanon and granted the United Kingdom mandates over the Iraq and the Palestine (which was comprised of two autonomous regions: Palestine and Transjordan). Parts of the Ottoman Empire on the Arabian Peninsula became parts of what are today Saudi Arabia and Yemen. During the British mandate, the country was ruled by British colonial administrators who used the British armed forces to put down rebellions against the government. They selected the Hashemite king, Faisal, who had been forced out of Syria by the French, to be their client ruler.

Iran - The Shah was put in power by the UK/US, and his dictatorial behaviour led to the Iranian revolution in 1979.
In 1951, an eccentric pro-democratic nationalist, Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh rose to prominence in Iran and was elected Prime Minister. As Prime Minister, Mossadegh alarmed the West by his nationalization of Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (later British Petroleum, BP) that had controlled the country's oil reserves. In response, Britain immediately embargoed Iran. Soon after, members of the British Intelligence Service invited the United States to join them in covertly overthrowing the democratically-elected Mossadegh. Initially, United States President Harry S. Truman refused, but after Dwight D. Eisenhower was elected the British proposed the plan again. After convincing Eisenhower that Mossadegh was sympatheic to communism (even though he was an avowed anti-communist), the United States agreed to assist Britain in Operation Ajax. President Eisenhower authorized the CIA to take the lead in the operation of overthrowing Mossadegh and supporting a US/Israeli-friendly monarch. The operation was successful in triggering a coup, and within days, pro-Shah tanks stormed the capital and bombarded the Prime Minister's residence. Mossadegh surrendered, and was arrested on 19 August 1953. He was tried for treason, and sentenced to three years in prison. Mohammad Reza Pahlavi's rule became increasingly autocratic in the following years. With strong support from the US and UK, the Shah further modernized Iranian industry, but simultaneously crushed all forms of political opposition with his intelligence agency, SAVAK. 1979 saw an increase in protests against the Shah, culminating in the Iranian Revolution. The Shah fled the country again, after which Khomeini returned from exile on February 1, 1979 and eventually succeeded in taking power.

Lebanon - Set up and administered by the French in the 20th Century.
This area became a part of the French Mandate of Syria. On September 1, 1920, France formed the State of Greater Lebanon as one of several ethnic enclaves within Syria. Lebanon was a largely Christian (mainly Maronite) enclave but also included areas containing many Muslims and Druzes. On September 1, 1926, France formed the Lebanese Republic. The Republic was afterward a separate entity from Syria but still administered under the French Mandate for Syria. 40% of the Lebanese are Christian. Until the Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990), the country enjoyed relative calm and prosperity, driven by the tourism, agriculture, and banking sectors of the economy. It was considered the banking capital of the Arab world and was widely known as the "Switzerland of the Middle East" due to its financial power. Lebanon also attracted large numbers of tourists, to the point that the capital Beirut became widely referred to as the "Paris of the Middle East."

Pakistan - Less said about the fall-out from the British Empire in the Indian sub-continent, the better, I think.

So I stand corrected I am wrong, any time now all these different muslim factions are going to pat one another on the back and get on with sorting out the little problems of sanitation, food, water, poor treatment of women and crime in their countries instead of wanting to kill one another.

[danielf]

Guard being quizzed over Saddam video (BBC)