Students Rioting in London.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I don't see any mention of the pledge, pictured below, being contingent on their winning the election.

For those with poor or failing eyesight / memories it states:

"I pledge TO VOTE AGAINST ANY INCREASE IN FEES in the next parliament and to pressure the government to introduce A FAIRER ALTERNATIVE" (my emphasis).

Clearly there was no inference that this pledge was contingent on their winning the election unless, of course, we are expected to believe by way of some paradoxical anomaly that they were intent on pressuring themselves to introduce a "fairer alternative" than what they, themselves, might propose.

Fair shout, but the pledge was still made on the understanding that they wouldn't be part of a coalition government.

Clegg has made it clear that this is somthing that ideally they wouldn't havewanted to do, but when they were negotiating the terms of the coalition agreement this was a policy they had to compromise/concede on.

That's just a fact, if they had gone into this coalition and had been able to keep every policy that they wanted then it wouldn't be a coalition would it?

Likewise with the Tories, they've had to concede on some of their manifesto.

I don't see why "educated" students can't understand the reality of the situation?

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Derek

That's different. Anyone the Police injure was only there to exercise their right to protest and was doing nothing wrong, they just happened to be pushed to the front of the riot by a big boy who ran away.

The Police on the other hand were injured by people responding to them stopping their democratic right to smash things up and act like thugs, it's their own fault really.

Well that's the impression I get from listening to the 'student' leaders on TV who seem less than happy about revealing exactly what they are studying and if they ever intend on getting a proper job.

Any sympathy I had for students is now gone. There wasn't this level of protests when the tuition fees were introduced in the first place, or when the review to their levels were introduced.
However when a predominately Tory government actually does something with them there is hell to pay. I wonder why that is?

Problem is this is going to get worse because the next bunch of idiots will wait till its warmer before they start there trouble and destruction of public property.

They will learn from the actions of and reaction to the hoodlum students and turn this country upside down. The problem will be that the next bunch of hoodlums will have more money to fight with and i honestly think it will end up with innocent people being murdered by them AGAIN.

The next bunch of hoodlums will say they are doing it to prevent government cuts but we all know it will be because they don't like this government and to be honest have all ready said they intend to bring the country to its knees. I just hope they don't kill anyone as they have done in the past

[Ignitionnet]

This is this coalition's big challenge. They have to entice people used to having their Labour cushioned arses wiped for them into accepting responsibility for themselves rather than assuming the government will do things for them or at very least give them money.

It's not going to be pleasant but it is, from my Centrist point of view, absolutely required to avoid the UK being pulled even further to the left.

If people stop and look this government isn't a patch on past Tory governments in terms of size of the state, not even close, and their cuts to services are pretty tame. They only seem large due to the unprecedented (in peace time) swelling of the public sector the previous administration carried out.

More poeple should remember who got us into all these messes rather then who is trying and having to sort them out but then that would require a bit of memory and concentration which is not something many seem willing or able to do anymore. As for more protests sorry but you can replace the word protests with trouble because thats all it's going to be and all in the run up to xmas when familys will be out trying to enjoy themselves.

Sorry but right now public opinion is not on the side of students not even the most drug crazed idiot could realistically claim that and the more trouble they cause the more public opinion will turn against them and the calls for more extreme response to them will increase. Hell if it was upto me i would already have the army handling any further protests.

[Jimmy-J]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

More poeple should remember who got us into all these messes rather then who is trying and having to sort them out but then that would require a bit of memory and concentration which is not something many seem willing or able to do anymore. As for more protests sorry but you can replace the word protests with trouble because thats all it's going to be and all in the run up to xmas when familys will be out trying to enjoy themselves.

That can be said about most, if not all parties, that have had contol of this country.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Sorry but right now public opinion is not on the side of students not even the most drug crazed idiot could realistically claim that and the more trouble they cause the more public opinion will turn against them and the calls for more extreme response to them will increase. Hell if it was upto me i would already have the army handling any further protests.

What army would that be then? Most of our forces seem to be out right now protecting other citizens and other countries.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Product 13

That can be said about most, if not all parties, that have had contol of this country.



What army would that be then? Most of our forces seem to be out right now protecting other citizens and other countries.

could use the navy as they have no boats to play with

[danielf]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

More poeple should remember who got us into all these messes rather then who is trying and having to sort them out but then that would require a bit of memory and concentration which is not something many seem willing or able to do anymore.

Please enlighten me then as to why it is that countries all over the world need to take austerity measures?

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I don't see why "educated" students can't understand the reality of the situation?

I think an important and oft overlooked part of the student position is that they have seen that a banking system was let run riot and bring the UK to the point of bankruptcy.

The reality is that as a result and consequence of those actions they, and indeed many others whom I have no doubt will follow suit in the coming months, are angry that they are having to pay for those mistakes whilst the banks continue, largely unpunished and true to form, refusing to lend to increase the buoyancy of the market and blackmailing the "Government" with odious threats of taking their business elsewhere if they are not allowed to continue to speculate and gamble, at a whim, the future of the entire UK economy, education, and employment.

As I have stated previously, if the future academia of the UK are prepared to protest and risk a criminal conviction in an effort to stand up to austerity cuts what might we expect from those who themselves think they have nothing to lose - like the disabled and the unemployed who are in the crosshairs?

As Sirius has said above we've seen what can happen when heated disputes get out of hand. People do die, Blair Peach and Ian Tomlinson being but two examples.

The reality is that not all students are as short sighted / stupid as many posters in this thread would like to believe.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

<snip>

The reality is that not all students are as short sighted / stupid as many posters in this thread would like to believe.

I think the last four words in that sentence are superfluous.

[nomadking]

Because people were pressured by governments and the media, to make easy money by buying houses which they couldn't afford. So, when rather than if(or so they were told) the price increased they could sell it for a large profit and therefore cover any debts. The Banks etc lent money on the basis that if any individual borrower got into problems, the price increase could cover the bank's money. They didn't take into account what would happen when too many people got into problems and therefore there were more properties for sale, but less people able to buy them.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I think an important and oft overlooked part of the student position is that they have seen that a banking system was let run riot and bring the UK to the point of bankruptcy.

The reality is that not all students are as short sighted / stupid as many posters in this thread would like to believe.

If they are happy to believe the first paragraph is entirely the source of the current issues they are most certainly short sighted / stupid.

I would suggest that only people like Ken Livingstone and others on the left believe the banking system is entirely to blame for all our ills. There are many reasons for the issues largely focussing around economic mismanagement in the past decade.

It is however a convenient excuse and a wonderful scapegoat without a doubt. I'd be looking closer to home at things like increasing the number of undergraduates dramatically without giving appropriate thought to funding, the unfunded EMA, billions in 'off the books' PFI spending.

Even with the UK economy apparently very healthy and growing consistently, the best times seen in a very long time even if they were largely an illusion, Labour were managing to spend more than the record tax receipts, and that was just what was being spent 'on the books' ignoring expenditures shuffled around like some cynical corporation trying to avoid tax. Or in this case avoid being held to account.

The policy to get 50% to university was wrong, it continues to be wrong, it's done nothing to address skills shortages as the degrees don't have value in the context of the labour market. It's merely robbed us of many skilled trade professionals who instead of doing vocational training did some nonsense degree and are on the dole or underemployed.

Due to this wholesale dilution of the value of degrees the old train of thought, that investing in higher education was valuable as graduates would earn more than their counterparts so put more back into the chancellor's coffers than was spent educating them, is in doubt.

We're stuck, it sucks, it's not the fault of bankers. We either need to jack up taxes a lot or reduce spending. Our economy isn't compatible with jacking taxes up at this time, which leaves....

---------- Post added at 11:56 ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 ----------

Originally Posted by danielf

I think the last four words in that sentence are superfluous.

Care to explain your comment in more detail rather than merely insulting anyone who doesn't share your point of view?

I appreciate it's not the modus operandi of most of those opposed to the austerity measures actually explaining their views coherently but if you could it'd be most welcome, thanks!

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

If they are happy to believe the first paragraph is entirely the source of the current issues they are most certainly short sighted / stupid.

I don't recall my, or indeed their, use of the word "entirely".

Your subsequent assertion in relation to short sightedness / stupidity is, therefore, rather moot.

Still, feel free to vent your spleen in an attempt at, to coin a phrase, "insulting anyone who doesn't share your point of view".

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Care to explain your comment in more detail rather than merely insulting anyone who doesn't share your point of view?

I appreciate it's not the modus operandi of most of those opposed to the austerity measures actually explaining their views coherently but if you could it'd be most welcome, thanks!

Unlike your statement, it was a blanket statement not directed at anyone in particular, and certainly not directed at anyone who doesn't share my point of view. Nevertheless, feel free make assumptions regarding my views and to criticise the perceived coherence of the arguments of those who you think don't share your views.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I don't recall my, or indeed their, use of the word "entirely".

Your subsequent assertion in relation to short sightedness / stupidity is, therefore, rather moot.

Still, feel free to vent your spleen in an attempt at, to coin a phrase, "insulting anyone who doesn't share your point of view".

I would regard my post as not insulting anyone. If we are being pedantic I used the word 'If' as the very first word within my post, so the statement was conditional not absolute

I would also suggest that neither you nor I you know the viewpoints of every student so to make any claims regarding their viewpoints as a whole would be inaccurate. It's probably a fair assumption that some of them, in common with many other demographics, are quite happy to entirely blame bankers for the issues. Most of a left-wing slant whose ideological slant is towards big state, big spending, comprehensive welfare and the like are going to struggle with the idea that those policies contributed to recession.

The rest of the post wasn't insulting anyone, it was what I regard as realism, stating the blindingly obvious with the benefit of hindsight.

Am I to surmise you can't disagree with its' content given you describe it as spleen venting but offer no correction?

---------- Post added at 12:31 ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 ----------

Originally Posted by danielf

Unlike your statement, it was a blanket statement not directed at anyone in particular, and certainly not directed at anyone who doesn't share my point of view. Nevertheless, feel free make assumptions regarding my views and to criticise the perceived coherence of the arguments of those who you think don't share your views.

Unless you are calling yourself stupid and short sighted it's a fair assumption you are discussing people whose views don't match your own. My comment also stands that it's worth elaborating on such a provocative statement.

You suggested:

The reality is that not all students are as short sighted / stupid as many posters in this thread

It would be good to know who you are actually discussing, just for future reference, so that we know who danielf considers short sighted and stupid

My statement again wasn't blanket hence use of conditional statements as opposed to absolutes. I've learned thanks to far too many mistakes not to write absolutes on emotive subjects

I wasn't criticising perceived coherence, coherence isn't really a matter of perception so much it's either there or it isn't. Most of those I have been exposed to who disagree with austerity measures can't come up with any coherent argument beyond complaints about how it affects them personally. Just my experience, many posters on here being notable exceptions.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Unless you are calling yourself stupid and short sighted it's a fair assumption you are discussing people whose views don't match your own.

Not at all. You get stupid people everywhere. It's not limited to people leaning to the right or left.

My comment also stands that it's worth elaborating on such a provocative statement.

You suggested:

It would be good to know who you are actually discussing, just for future reference, so that we know who danielf considers short sighted and stupid

You don't do humour very well do you?