1GB Cap Letter!!!!

[Acathla]

Originally Posted by Womble

My point exactly, you can't exceed the limit legally, well you can but you have to go out of your way to do so. NTL could always scrap the cap and use packet sniffers!!!!!!!!!!!

Im not attacking you personally but that view is EXTREMELY naive.
As I have again said previoulsy (I do seem to be repeating myself a lot), but I pay extra subscriptions for legall musci and video download sites. Videos from there are mostly between 700-900meg each. Theres your limit pretty much without doing anything else online.

Yeah people can use the interent for illegal things but for you to tarnish us all with the thought that, 'well he is downloading more than me so he must be downloading illegal material' - bull!

[Womble]

Originally Posted by Sociable

Question for you womble.

Do you agree that NTL have an obligation to make sure customers are aware of the nature of the contract they have in as far as restrictions apply?

Yes I do, but Microsoft state they can access you PC in theirs to check all your software is legit, do you use windows?.

Is this obligation increased each time they themselves promote additional services such as on-line gaming and plus?

I agree it should be tiered, 2g for 1m, 1g for 600m etc

And finally how many customers would either leave or more importantly not sign up in the first palce if they actually brought the full implication of the cap to their notice in its current form openly?

Not that many, Not that many people are affected by the cap, trust me. You and the others here are in the minority

If you want to apply limits don't make all the advertsiing give the impression it is an all you can eat service and then rely on an AUP which itself is only an off-shoot of the main T.O.S.

I still believe 1gig isn't bad (If the cap is applied sensibly). My wife and my youngest use the PC during the day, and my eldest and myself use it in the evening, and apart from when I download Karate stuff I never hit the limit and I play games most nights

[Acathla]

Originally Posted by Womble

Dedicated Internet Access, which is what you require to download the kind of amounts you keep stating is as follow
512=£80 00 per year
1024= £12000
45meg=£ 266,000

Which is why I dont pay for dedicated internet access.
Can I refer to punky's post here: http://forum.nthellworld.co.uk/showp...&postcount=263

Completely agree. If NTL had a fair system of dividing the bandwidth round then there wouldnt be a problem. If noone is logged on then I would get full speed but if there were 100 people logged on then of course we should ALL get slower speeds. Why be it I get full speed and 99 others get lesser speeds?

Is that my fault?

It has been said 1,000,000 times before but NTL's network is bad and we are being accussed of it. Own up NTL and sort it out.

(oh and giving us an unrealistic limit is NOT sorting it out)

[Acathla]

Originally Posted by andygrif

Are you sure? I seem to think that there was some sort of prescident on this a long time ago, before the internet existed. The outcome was that you cannot make available copyrighted material to others (like selling or handing out photocopies of a book) but it is not illegal to aquire such product.

It may well be that the rules changed in the new Copyright Bill recently, and certainly if you install some software then generally you have to agree to terms and conditions which would leave you open to being sued if you violated them (like installing software you had got from someone else).

But in the case of music, I believe the copyright exists in the use and distribution only, not in the possesion.

I'm near 100% sure that its illegal.
Its just Music Publishers will generally go after distributers as they are usually the big players. Same as drugs, stop the dealers and youll stop the sales.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Womble

Let me straighten a few things up
1 I am not from FACT or the BPI, but I can see where they are coming from
2 The average user's are the majority, there ain't that many that exceed the limit, but the few that do seem to make the most noise.
3 The content does make a differance, everyone knows, people downloading that amount of data are downloading pirated software and films. NTL can not be seen to condone it.
1 gig a day is enough to run a small business

1 gig a day may be enough to run a small business, but it can still be easily used up, streaming, full software packages, beta testing software, email, web browsing , game demos, software demos, backing up data, mp3s and movies

before you start of on me on the piracy issue, just remember 2 things, don't label people please just because you dont use much traffic it means to use more cant be right, right? There are places now where you can download movies legally and in the future this will become much more popular, the future is content and big downloads, the future is higher bitrate streams, the future is online content live with it. Also the competition seems to be disagreeing with ntl.

Adsl - 2mbit to homes
BY - 2mbit to homes
NTL - 1mbit to homes with 1 gig/day cap

hmmm let me think about this, are ntl thinking of the future or are they thinking of now.

the truth is womble it is possible to run an isp without stupid limits, otherwise 90% of the ADSL market would have gone bust.

[Chrysalis]

I got no problem disclosing what I download but to be quite frank it is noone's business for the record I will be probably be under 30 gig this month, (used 12 gig so far) but its the future and other user's I am concerned for, and also when I myself might want to download 50 gig 1 month.

[Sociable]

Originally Posted by Womble

I still believe 1gig isn't bad (If the cap is applied sensibly). My wife and my youngest use the PC during the day, and my eldest and myself use it in the evening, and apart from when I download Karate stuff I never hit the limit and I play games most nights

Fair point for your own use 1 gig may well be fair but how does that help every other user?

Do I assume that the lack of comment on the point about NTL needing to be open and honest means you agree 100% with the point I make?

Just so it is clear, the reason we are asking NTL to rethink this policy is partly to ensure that heavy users do not impact on your enjoyment too.

As currently worded the AUP has no chance of doing this.

If a more appropriately worded and enforced AUP was put in place then it would help "average" users like yourself and this would make it a selling point rather than a turn-off for most "average" users.

[rodd]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherN00b

Regarding restricted usage packages. Again difficult due to the fact that DSL uses PPP to identify subscribers, ntl would need specialist hardware and introduction of PPPoE to offer P2P-less tiers. Even if they did the only saving would be cost, would still be sharing the same network segments as uber leechers.

So ADSL companies can and do provide restricted usage packages, that the inferior ntl service seemingly could not provide.

Monitoring software, quite specific software would be required in order to monitor people's usage at off-peak and peak times, and again it comes down to the issue where during peak times 6 - 10pm someone switches kazaa or whatever off, so they are only downloading 8.4GB a day and uploading 2GB a day, still excessive usage, but because it's not causing congestion at 'peak' times this is fine. Peak times by the way are 6pm - 11pm Monday - Friday and about 9AM - 11PM at weekends. Can you imagine heavy downloaders not downloading for 14 hours a day at weekends?

At least you now agree that excessive usage that is not causing congestion is ok.

Get the monitoring software to monitor the peak and off-peak times, and you might as well also monitor the most off-peak times as well (sleeping hours midnight-ish till 8ish). It's not that difficult to do monitoring. Then we can make progress. You still haven't given a valid reason for treating the sleeping-hours the same as the peak hours.

No ISP should have to support that usage whether it's at peak times or not, and very few do their downloading at night anyway, those downloading 24/7, who seem to be the majority contacted in this case are downloading at peak and off-peak times anyway, so something of a moot point.

You're missing the point again.
Bandwidth is present and hardly being used in the most off-peak periods, such as the sleeping hours. There is no justifiable reason for more or unlimited downloading to be allowed in that period. It causes no disruption, all that is happening is that, what is there is being used instead of being left idle.

The monitoring is also simplified, as there is no monitoring needed to be done in that period (normal sleeping hours).

There is complete logic in treating that period (normal sleeping hours) differently, and encouraging more users, and especially the heavy users, to use that period more as it will not affect their cap limit.

This is the logic that I/we have tried to drum into the ntl mindset, at great length, but their minds were closed to suggestions of any kind of logic.
As I have said before, logic is not one of ntl's strong points, so I don't hold much hope of getting through the mindset, this time. However, I can but try.

[Chrysalis]

NTL should buy licences for netlimiter then supply to their customers so they can monitor their own bandwidth and cap it if neccesary, womble can I ask your thoughts on applying a cap with no isp provided means to measure traffic used?

[Blake]

Me too, my habbits might change in the future, bigger, better streaming, who knows.

I have got a dvd or too from usenet, had to try it.. see what all the fuss was, but took too long.. 12 hours a movie.. no thanks.

I don't want to be recieving letters/emails/bombs etc, for using a connection legally.

If I was to be doing activity, that was not in the aup/t&s, then I would expect the hassle, but not for using the connection as I do.

They need to sort it out, and stop following BT -no-frills- AUP

[Chrysalis]

rodd ure bang on, it should be a time of day thing, I would expect after this cap was introduced that congestion during peak periods was sligthly affected (as people will still use the net when they at pc) but greatly affected at quiet times meaning they probably near bottoming out now at 3am LOL

[Stuartbe]

Why not save more money and offer a heavy user type account for users. You can save the money by offering a connection only. No webspace or email......

A lot of techy users run there own mail and web - or host elsewhere as the NTL servers are too unreliable !!!

Give those users unlimited bandwidth during the off peak hours and limit the speed on a 1mb to say 600k during peak hours. 600k is more than ample for web browsing and any heavy file downloads can be done overnight !

[Womble]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

NTL should buy licences for netlimiter then supply to their customers so they can monitor their own bandwidth and cap it if neccesary, womble can I ask your thoughts on applying a cap with no isp provided means to measure traffic used?

When your pulled over for speeding by the police, can you use the excuse you don't have a speedo?? (Odometer)...No. Measure your own usage. If ntl just cut you straight off I could see your point but, aren't the letters warning you that you have exceeded the limit??, and requesting you to slow down??

[blue jammer]

Originally Posted by Womble

My point exactly, you can't exceed the limit legally, well you can but you have to go out of your way to do so.

Wrong.

I am a sound artist, I write, produce and remix electronica/downtempo music.

I collaborate with people in the UK, USA, Germany, France & Sweden.

In order to do so, I send via FTP and file trasfer either ICQ or MSN .wav files in order to maintain the quality of the tracks we're doing. It's quicker to send a 800 meg (full audio CD) via the net than it is to send it airmail to USA or Sweden.

I'll leave my PC running so I can send/recieve similar files, which can be easily a couple of GIG a day.

This is before I use a not-so-well-known-P2P-program, as there is a community on there of like-minded people who share 320kbps mp3 files of thier work, 95% of them are unsigned and it's a fantastic way to promote your music, get instant feedback.

So it is easy to exceed NTL's silly limit, they need sort this out, else they'll suffer in the long run, most people I know on NTL haven't been overly happy with the service in the last 6 months to a year, with the myriad of problems from proxy's to e-mail.

Companies currently offering 2mb lines for £35.49 (that's 49p more than NTL charge you for a 1mb line)

NTL, drop your pricing & increase the limits or you'll lose a lot of customers

[Acathla]

Originally Posted by Womble

When your pulled over for speeding by the police, can you use the excuse you don't have a speedo?? (Odometer)...No. Measure your own usage. If ntl just cut you straight off I could see your point but, aren't the letters warning you that you have exceeded the limit??, and requesting you to slow down??

Where can you buy a car without a speedo?