[Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

Originally Posted by Sirius

I had said i would not vote at the next election, however i have now decided to give that vote to UKIP and hope it makes a difference.

I'd be wary of doing that ,not saying i wouldn't but i would need to know a lot more about the candidates and the skills they could bring to the table .I fell for the smooth talk of Clegg at the last election as a lot of people did ,he promised a lot and sounded like he could make it happen but when it came down to the crunch he was unable to fulfill those promises when he got to power .Now he just looks like he's there to make the numbers up with no real decision making capabilities at all and i would be worried that UKIP would end up the same way

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by marty

I'd be wary of doing that ,not saying i wouldn't but i would need to know a lot more about the candidates and the skills they could bring to the table .I fell for the smooth talk of Clegg at the last election as a lot of people did ,he promised a lot and sounded like he could make it happen but when it came down to the crunch he was unable to fulfill those promises when he got to power .Now he just looks like he's there to make the numbers up with no real decision making capabilities at all and i would be worried that UKIP would end up the same way

The three main parties have done nothing to benefit this country, Labour spent all the money and dropped us well and truly in it. The liberals jumped into bed with the conservatives at the first chance they got. The Conservatives have reduced our Armed forces to a point were we could not defend this country against a bunch of boy scouts never mind another army.

between the three of them they have robbed us of money via there expenses and for that i will never trust the three main parties ever again

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sirius

I had said i would not vote at the next election, however i have now decided to give that vote to UKIP and hope it makes a difference.

Been voting for them for years now, I can see them doing very well next time round.

Originally Posted by Sirius

The three main parties have done nothing to benefit this country, Labour spent all the money and dropped us well and truly in it. The liberals jumped into bed with the conservatives at the first chance they got. The Conservatives have reduced our Armed forces to a point were we could not defend this country against a bunch of boy scouts never mind another army.

between the three of them they have robbed us of money via there expenses and for that i will never trust the three main parties ever again

I agree with all that ,i'm just wary that ukips inexperience in government will show at the first test.

[Osem]

My big worry is that voting UKIP will simply let Labour back in to finish the job of ruining this country. Let's not forget they had 13 years of parliamentary majority and massive borrowing/spending to sort out many of the issues they're currently blaming the current incumbents for. They have no coherent policies and when they're forced to admit they'd need to make cuts they only do so to sound credible. My feeling is that once again, they'll say anything to get back in power and then just carry on where they left off.

Anyway, that's my first rant of 2013 over...

[Derek]

I'll believe we will get a vote when I'm standing in the voting booth with a pen in hand and voting slip in front of me.

Till that time I am sure every mainstream party will weasel out of actually allowing voters to make any meaningful choices on the future of the country.

Originally Posted by martyh

Problem is though if we left the EU who would the government blame when their ineptitude leads to financial/social disaster ,no longer will they be able to say "we where forced into it by the EU"

---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:29 ----------



Cheers hugh ,i suppose there is a difference between "real choice" and an actual vote ,in politician speak anyway

they are blaming the sick and unemployed. UKIP are the only party with anything behind them who want out of the EU yet they are perceived to be right wing and possibly even fascists lol it is a shame because all the EU is doing is dragging us down with them. Thank god we stayed out of the Euro

---------- Post added at 10:01 ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

I'd be wary of doing that ,not saying i wouldn't but i would need to know a lot more about the candidates and the skills they could bring to the table .I fell for the smooth talk of Clegg at the last election as a lot of people did ,he promised a lot and sounded like he could make it happen but when it came down to the crunch he was unable to fulfill those promises when he got to power .Now he just looks like he's there to make the numbers up with no real decision making capabilities at all and i would be worried that UKIP would end up the same way

he has only just found his balls and started to stand up to DC took him to long.

Originally Posted by Sirius

Oh great so we get some trade and a few car plants, in return the EU to all intents and purposes control what we can and cannot do as a country. Sorry but i prefer for us to be able to control our own laws not some unelected bureaucrats in Brussels who probably hates us as well in between fiddling his expenses paid for by us. .

Some trade? A lot of our trade is with Europe. Additionally some of the service sectors and financial sectors want access to that market.

http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...n-making-break

(better article).

It's worth reading the whole thing rather than a quote. In summary leaving the EU will have drawbacks.

Originally Posted by Damien

Some trade? A lot of our trade is with Europe. Additionally some of the service sectors and financial sectors want access to that market.

http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...n-making-break

(better article).

It's worth reading the whole thing rather than a quote. In summary leaving the EU will have drawbacks.

but all these businesses will still want to trade with us we are a wealthy nation if you do not count the economy lol there is a lot of money spent that has nothing to do with politics .

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

but all these businesses will still want to trade with us we are a wealthy nation if you do not count the economy lol there is a lot of money spent that has nothing to do with politics .

It's not that simple. There are costs to trading, tariffs and so forth. It costs money to trade, costs we do not face as a member of the EU. People won't trade with us if they can trade with other EU member states at a lower cost. Companies than need to import items might move their operations into mainland Europe to avoid such costs. They'll take their jobs with them.

Over time, though, the general drift of business investment would be away from Britain and towards the continent. That goes for finance, too. If London wants to be the regional hub for trading China’s currency, it will need to retain its position as the main centre for settling trades of cash and derivatives in euros. Some in Europe resent this: the governor of France’s central bank complained this week that euro deals should be done in euroland. Without the shield of single-market rules, London could lose out to rival EU centres.

There would be benefits to leaving the EU as well but the people who portray it as having no advantages are lying. There will be a cost to pay for leaving.

Originally Posted by Damien

It's not that simple. There are costs to trading, tariffs and so forth. It costs money to trade, costs we do not face as a member of the EU. People won't trade with us if they can trade with other EU member states at a lower cost. Companies than need to import items might move their operations into mainland Europe to avoid such costs. They'll take their jobs with them.



There would be benefits to leaving the EU as well but the people who portray it as having no advantages are lying. There will be a cost to pay for leaving.

This is just standard-issue scaremongering.

A couple of facts about our balance of trade with the EU. Firstly, it may receive almost half of all our exports, but a very short time ago it was comfortably more than half. It has been dropping, and continues to do so. Meanwhile other parts of the world are booming, particularly the Commonwealth, a group of nations we have strong historical and current ties with, but cannot make our own trading arrangements with, because we have surrendered that ability to the EU.

Secondly, we are a net importer of goods from the EU. The EU needs us as a market more than we need it. The idea that we could negotiate anything less than favourable terms for continued access to the single market is disingenuous to say the least.

Damien, your claim that "People won't trade with us if they can trade with other EU member states at a lower cost." doesn't stack up, for a couple of major reasons. The first is that in a capitalist market, which, more or less, the world is, sellers in the market must find constant growth. Even if they sell into 'cheaper' markets first, the need for growth will drive them into 'expensive' ones also. The idea that the UK is suddenly going to be starved of consumer products is just silly.

Following on from that, you're making a pretty huge assumption about the relative costs of selling goods within and outside of the European Union. The rules of the single market do not promote freedom and ease of access. For the most part, they merely use consumer freedom and protection as a smokescreen to disguise vested interests. The regulations make it costlier for importers to sell in EU markets. Getting some of those regulations off our statute book would give us a competitive advantage.

Originally Posted by Chris

Damien, your claim that "People won't trade with us if they can trade with other EU member states at a lower cost." doesn't stack up, for a couple of major reasons. The first is that in a capitalist market, which, more or less, the world is, sellers in the market must find constant growth. Even if they sell into 'cheaper' markets first, the need for growth will drive them into 'expensive' ones also. The idea that the UK is suddenly going to be starved of consumer products is just silly.

I am not saying they won't trade with us. I am saying that there is a risk that our imports and especially exports will be hit. Also 'less than half and dropping' is still a lot. Having 50% of our exports hit would be a major problem. Especially since the dropping part is also an assumption, if mainland Europe's economic situation improves and they start to see growth then they may again be an important market for us. One in which we'll have additional costs to sell into.

They may need us more than we need them at the moment but Europe as an entity will be bigger than us both in terms of consumers, spending, manufacturing and GDP.

Following on from that, you're making a pretty huge assumption about the relative costs of selling goods within and outside of the European Union. The rules of the single market do not promote freedom and ease of access. For the most part, they merely use consumer freedom and protection as a smokescreen to disguise vested interests. The regulations make it costlier for importers to sell in EU markets. Getting some of those regulations off our statute book would give us a competitive advantage.

Yes they are assumptions but so is the idea that we'll have a competitive advantage. My complaint is that all we ever here is the EU is a disaster and we'll clean up by being out of it. So I linked to one of the few papers to make a case for staying in the EU rather than getting out of it.

[Itshim]

The only choice will be Stay in or Stay in, in different words . UKIP gets my vote next time round. Not that it will make a scrap of difference to the outcome in North Cardiff ( It will I fear stay Red )

On another point our UK company does very little export trade with in the EU. What we do takes up more office time. Red tape , & more Red tape. However we do import many because anti dumping levies means it is as cheap to get from the EU but that also means higher prices for the end user, with extra cash for Poland and the like. Out of the pockets of people in the UK.

[Hom3r]

I think we should leave Europe, but only if it really benefits us.

[deadite66]

My fear is that if we leave the EU we'll just be under more control of America.
much like a general election you vote for the least worst party and that's probably the EU.