anti americanism fashionable

[Ramrod]

I thought that this was interesting.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

The people that are being detained without being charged [i]are not American citizens[i] and they are not on American soil. Hence, American law does not apply to them, unless you want to extend American laws across the world.

It is not a human rights violation, for me, to temporarily hold illegal combatants. If you disagree, then we will have to agree to disagree on this point.




.

If they are held on an American Military base, no matter where that base is in the world they are indeed on American soil. The US embassy in London is classed as American soil, see my point?
Now I agree with you partially that yes these people were captured and were detained. There are however disturbing reports and photographic evidence that points to the officials of this "POW" camp torturing the inmates.
These "illegal" combatants were not part of an official army, therefor they should not be tried by a military court and they should not be executed because of something they did not do.
Imagine if the british forces executed the US soldiers for killing British troops in friendly fire incidents, you wouldnt like that would you?

It's so very easy for you to look at the effect and not the cause, does that make it easier to live with your conscience?

Perhaps you would care to raise the level of debate by refraining from personal remarks relating to my conscience, which is quite content.

I think the statement I`ve quoted above indicates the level of reasoning you are bringing to the debate. Because a protest doesn`t serve your ideals they must be a rent-a-mob. Are you going to be donating some extra cash to cover the policing of Bush's visit, because protest or not, do you not think that there may be some extra security in place anyway?

Yes, ok, we live in a free society and people have the right to protest and protest with responsibility, but I'm sure they, the protesters, are adult enough to understand criticism will be made toward them and they should not deceive themselves into thinking they represent the great mass of citizens. As to cash, I was hoping you yourself would make a gesture to donating a nice sum of money to the Metropolitan Police: we here in Harrow have no choice. Your friends will be diverting police resources from outer London in order to police their demonstration, this in turn opens up the possibility of more criminal activity in areas like this.


Who knows maybe there are potential homicidal killers about waiting to make themselves martyrs, let's hope not. Probably more security would be in place but perhaps not to the extent it is now.

Now enough of this, I need to get some work done.

Have a nice day.

Originally Posted by Gogogo

Perhaps you would care to raise the level of debate by refraining from personal remarks relating to my conscience, which is quite content.




Yes, ok, we live in a free society and people have the right to protest and protest with responsibility, but I'm sure they, the protesters, are adult enough to understand criticism will be made toward them and they should not deceive themselves into thinking they represent the great mass of citizens. As to cash, I was hoping you yourself would make a gesture to donating a nice sum of money to the Metropolitan Police: we here in Harrow have no choice. Your friends will be diverting police resources from outer London in order to police their demonstration, this in turn opens up the possibility of more criminal activity in areas like this.


Who knows maybe there are potential homicidal killers about waiting to make themselves martyrs, let's hope not. Probably more security would be in place but perhaps not to the extent it is now.

Now enough of this, I need to get some work done.

Have a nice day.

Errrr isnt it being reported on the TV that there is wide spread condemnation at the visit of Dubya?

That would infer that a vast amount of people are oppposed to the state visit.
Theres an air exlusion zone over London......why? they dont even do that for our royal family.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

. There are however disturbing reports and photographic evidence that points to the officials of this "POW" camp torturing the inmates.

I can't find it now, but I thought I read somewhere that the Red cross was complaining it was not being allowed access to the prisoners to verify the conditions they are being held in.


IF that is the case, that is suspicious in itself.

This is directed at all the people who think that the protest shouldn`t go ahead. Where's your support of freedom now? Do you only support freedom and the right of expression if it happens to agree with your view of the world? Hypocrits the lot of you, you're happy to bomb another country to ensure that they supposedly have freedom of expression, but are willing to attempt to stifle it in your own country.

Originally Posted by towny

What, as in Afghanistan, where until the US invasion the Taleban enjoyed the 'freedom' to deny education and liberty to half their population (i.e. the women), to deny citizens who disagreed with them the right to express that opposition or leave the country, and to thoroughly disrespect foreign cultures even when they are no threat to them, ably demonstrated by the decision to blow up a set of ancient Buddhist statues?

And who the hell are you to determined the concept of "freedom" for the rest of the world? Different cultures have different belief values, but of course, only your set of values is the correct one isn`t it.

I could point out here that Christianity also attempts to curtail a lot of freedoms, perhaps we should get a liberation force in to free us from those attempting to make us a Christian state?

Originally Posted by Defiant

I'm anti-anti-american protesters lol. I've seen them in the streets protesting and on telly. 90% jobless layabout's.

Get a job

I'm with you on this one, well maybe not all of it. What really ****es me off is the people that jump on the band wagon, and then go straight back to work/whatever telling everyone they have done their bit.

There is a group down here in Bristol who stand by a busy road side every week protesting about Bush/War but no one will join them, there are only about 5 of them. Then when a big one happens in London they are there straight away. Maybe its because its bound to appear on the news, maybe its because they want to feel part of something, but only want to give up one of their weekends? who knows.
Its like when Catholics try and redeem thereselves by saying they go to mass at Xmas and Easter. People should be in it for the long run, not just for day.

Originally Posted by Gogogo

Actually, I think President Bush is quite correct. Dictatorships need to be dealt with and those who rule without respect to the UN Human Rights Charter should be punished.

SO *WHY* hasn't the USA intervened in all those other countries who are so "unacceptable" to their lights???

I see little point in this, we were allied during the Second World War with some strange bedfellows: Joe Stalin's USSR, sometimes circumstances are like that. Some of the countries you mention are new democracies, one gets the impression you wish to belittle them due to their size, that's not very nice.

It is not that they are "strange bedfellows" it is the fact that the USA offered what were nothing less than "financial inducements" to more than a few of these countries to get them to sign up and support America's illegal actions in Iraq.

If you actually asked those countries and their peoples what they thought about the situation in Iraq I would put good money on the response being "we don't give two hoots about it, but we could do with a few billion extra dollars!"

No, not the same, homicidal terrorists murder deliberately as a matter of policy: men, women, chidren, mothers and babies, and even those at prayer such as the recent terrorist bombing of two synagoges in Turkey,;how on earth can you smugly say that it's the same as Allied forces bombing military targets, if civilians are killed or injured it's regretably accidental.

Ah, that wonderful term "friendly fire"? But firstly you haven't addressed the usage of cluster bombs and other such munitions which have the unfortunate habit of leaving unexploded ordnance lying around on the ground where it lurks until some poor unlucky sod trips over it or a hapless child sees something shiny and pretty and picks it up, only to have their hand blown off.

And secondly you haven't addressed the point that the USA *deliberately* and *as a matter of policy* targetted *civilian* infrastructure (conveniently redefining it as "military targets") resulting in outbreaks of disease and deaths amongst the general population.

Just my point, we are faced with HIGHER COUNCIL TAX bills simply because anti-American rent a mobs,

And again you make this accusation, yet again, you fail to back it up with any *real* proof. So either provide some cites that these "mobs" are being "rented" by someone or some organisation or shut up about them.

If you support anti-American protest why dont you put your money where your mouth is and help a little more by giving the police more cash.

Why on *earth* should I want to do that? What logical connection is there between the two ideas? It seems you are drawing a totally irrational conclusion based on nothing more than your own prejudices.

Very likely many will be living on state benefits

Oh! State benefits! Why didn't you say! Clearly, then, this is categorical proof that actually it is the *GOVERNMENT* themselves who are "renting" these mobs!!

some indeed it could be suggested may be funded by the G.L.A, K. Livingstone loves giving other peoples' money away,who knows?

Ah, supposition, innuendo, hearsay, gossip and not a *SHRED OF PROOF*!

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Nevertheless that is the general tone of this thread......

Gosh, that's a nice big brush you're using to tar everyone who you disagree with!!

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I thought that this was interesting.

So is this... http://www.guardian.co.uk/monarchy/s...997231,00.html

I am currently living on Stat benefits, I am going to preotest against Dubya when he visits Sedgefield this coming friday.

Now Am I doing this because I am unemployed? No
Am I doing this because I beleive the war in Iraq was unjustified? hmmm Partly
Am I doing this to be a pain in the arse? You betchya

I know I will cost money in policing (which will be there anyway) but I want to make sure that Dubya knows I am unhappy wiht HIS actions.
Now As I said I am on benefit, I cant go to the states and do this (i'd probably be arrested and executed as a terrorist if I did lol) so I do it in a way I can.

Saying I am doing htis because I am a scrounger and living on benefits only shows you to be a uneducated pathetic individual that has about as much sense as the person I am demonstarting against.

If you care to look a little closer, you will know the benefit I get is for being a carer, I do work, but sadly when your qualified to work in IT and there are no job let alone IT jobs its a tad difficult to find work. I have worked as a security guard on £2.10 an hour, I have worked as a labourer, I have worked in factories and I have shovelled **** on a farm for 12 hours a day. Dont ever tell me I'm a lazy layabout that wastes his dole money on protesting.

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

If they are held on an American Military base, no matter where that base is in the world they are indeed on American soil. The US embassy in London is classed as American soil, see my point?

No, because the US courts have agreed that, as Guantanamo Bay is only *leased* by the USA under a treaty dating back to 1903, it is *not* American soil. Curiously, however, it doesn't appear to be defined as *Cuban* soil either!

Basically this allows the USA to keep these prisoners in a legal limbo which is entirely to the convenience and liking of the US administration because they can deny the detainees the rights they have under US law and also, by calling them "unlawful combatants" they are denied rights under the Geneva Convention.

It's a neat bit of legal hair splitting.

Originally Posted by col d

I'm with you on this one, well maybe not all of it. What really ****es me off is the people that jump on the band wagon, and then go straight back to work/whatever telling everyone they have done their bit.

There is a group down here in Bristol who stand by a busy road side every week protesting about Bush/War but no one will join them, there are only about 5 of them. Then when a big one happens in London they are there straight away.

And what on earth do you think you're proving by this nonsense?

How many people can afford to give up their jobs to protest in this way? Could you? I doubt it.

It's not some pathetic desire (as you imply) simply to "get on telly" it is a desire to make sure that their *presence* is seen. to let you and our government know that there *ARE* a large number of people who object to what is happening and are willing to give up a day to attend a protest to express that objection.

If you think that this is "jumping on a band wagon" they you really have *no idea* what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Graham

No, because the US courts have agreed that, as Guantanamo Bay is only *leased* by the USA under a treaty dating back to 1903, it is *not* American soil. Curiously, however, it doesn't appear to be defined as *Cuban* soil either!

Basically this allows the USA to keep these prisoners in a legal limbo which is entirely to the convenience and liking of the US administration because they can deny the detainees the rights they have under US law and also, by calling them "unlawful combatants" they are denied rights under the Geneva Convention.

It's a neat bit of legal hair splitting.

Its a neat way of making your country hated even more too.
*shakes head* and they STILL wonder why they are hated, they have the nerve to say its because they are successful.

I say bring on the embargo the UK is thinking of imposing on the US in this latest trade war spat.