[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[jamiefrost]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

What I'm against is handing our Sovereignty and our hard earned cash over to a bunch of unelected bureaucrats who want to form a United States of Europe as America with a Federal system. Now I have nothing really against Federalism either, I believe it could work in a small country like ours. The point is it would be OURS and not the EU running it.

Ignoring the money argument for a minute and great big fat lies being told.

What do you mean by unelected?

The U.K. Government decides who represents the UKs interests on the EU Council. You don't vote for the UK cabinet or ministers and there is no requirement for members to be elected MPs.

How far do you take this, people from Yorkshire have no direct say on the members of the UK cabinet, does this mean there are unrepresented?

Jamie

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Damien

Not sure I get where you're coming from? Absolute poverty is not really that relevant to the UK. It's third world countries were it was more endemic. I was pointing out the weird contrast between the fact that inequality is increasing whilst absolute poverty is decreasing. These though are global trends.

Workers rights is a different, very Western, issue which isn't really the same issue as income inequality. We do have better workers rights than the US though if that's your point?

But workers rights is different to income inequality. They're not the same issue.

Now these 'third world' countries you talk about are not poor. Or should I say the Cities and Governments are not poor? I used to support Ethiopia until I say an item where 2 boat loads of whisky were being shipped to their Government in the late 80s. We send billions to those poor people and their Governments cream it off.

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

Originally Posted by jamiefrost

Ignoring the money argument for a minute and great big fat lies being told.

What do you mean by unelected?

The U.K. Government decides who represents the UKs interests on the EU Council. You don't vote for the UK cabinet or ministers and there is no requirement for members to be elected MPs.

How far do you take this, people from Yorkshire have no direct say on the members of the UK cabinet, does this mean there are unrepresented?

Jamie

Simple what I mean. The European Commission are unelected by the people. They are, however elected by the EU Ministers or the Parliament I believe. We have no say in it.

The Cabinet is different. You have already elected those Ministers whereas you haven't elected the Brussels lot.

---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

I am too. He seems to have been elected to be a Leader but has chose to step back from the spotlight. Doing so, no one, specifically the electorate, can get a read of the man in order to really judge him and his policies.

The view the right wing press present is, I suspect, distorted and incomplete. He should be trying to present himself in a more direct and coherent way. For example, I cannot remember him being on the Today programme recently.

As I said earlier, he may have a "cunning plan" in keeping out of the EU Vote mayhem or he may just be rubbish at his job ..

Yes he's a very clever man and knows exactly what he's doing and I think he's quite right. If you don't believe in what you're campaigning for, why campaign wholeheartedly for it.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

The Cabinet is different. You have already elected those Ministers whereas you haven't elected the Brussels lot

Yes he's a very clever man and knows exactly what he's doing and I think he's quite right. If you don't believe in what you're campaigning for, why campaign wholeheartedly for it.

I think that, for the record, there have been recent Cabinet ministers from the (unelected) House of Lords although not many I'll grant you.

Regards Corbyn, if you are the Leader of the Opposition you should have a policy and you should present it. I don't believe you have an opt out on this for such an important debate.

[jamiefrost]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Simple what I mean. The European Commission are unelected by the people. They are, however elected by the EU Ministers or the Parliament I believe. We have no say in it.

The Cabinet is different. You have already elected those Ministers whereas you haven't elected the Brussels.

That's completely wrong, the members of the council are put forward by the elected government of each member of the EU. They didn't just walk in off the street looking for a job.

There is no requirement for UK cabinet members to be elected as MPs first, you do not have any say in the members of the U.K. cabinet. Currently the UK cabinet contains 1 unelected member.

Fundamentally there is no difference on how much say you have in the members of either.

I didn't vote for a single cabinet member, neither did anyone in Leicester or the whole of Yorkshire, guess this means the cabinet is completely unrepresentative and undemocratic.

Jamie

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I think that, for the record, there have been recent Cabinet ministers from the (unelected) House of Lords although not many I'll grant you.

Regards Corbyn, if you are the Leader of the Opposition you should have a policy and you should present it. I don't believe you have an opt out on this for such an important debate.

Yes we have had, I think one Lord who was Prime Minister, maybe 2. Lord Liverpool comes to mind.

As for Corbyn, yes that's a hard one. Their policy is to remain in the EU though I'm sure there are a few Labour MPs who take the opposite view. I agree that he should present the policy or at least get the deputy to do it but I fear if he doesn't want the same thing to happen to Labour as the Tories he should either campaign or shut up and hand it to his deputy leader.

---------- Post added at 13:21 ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 ----------

Originally Posted by jamiefrost

That's completely wrong, the members of the council are put forward by the elected government of each member of the EU. They didn't just walk in off the street looking for a job.

There is no requirement for UK cabinet members to be elected as MPs first, you do not have any say in the members of the U.K. cabinet. Currently the UK cabinet contains 1 unelected member.

Fundamentally there is no difference on how much say you have in the members of either.

I didn't vote for a single cabinet member, neither did anyone in Leicester or the whole of Yorkshire, guess this means the cabinet is completely unrepresentative and undemocratic.

Jamie

Do you read before posting? Did I not say elected by Governments or the Parliament? OK so it's the member states which is not the common people so therefore they are NOT elected as far as we are concerned. Do you think these Governments / States / Members just put anyone in there? They put those who are gonna make them richer and us poorer. It's been that way since time began and always will be. The rich fat cats of Europe get richer whilst the Euro struggles and the 500 million Citizens get poorer. They are creaming it off. Do you really want to be part of that? London is now reminiscent of Dickensian times today with its poorer areas as with other Cities. The only people who benefit from the EU are the rich.

---------- Post added at 13:25 ---------- Previous post was at 13:21 ----------

Originally Posted by jamiefrost

That's completely wrong, the members of the council are put forward by the elected government of each member of the EU. They didn't just walk in off the street looking for a job.

There is no requirement for UK cabinet members to be elected as MPs first, you do not have any say in the members of the U.K. cabinet. Currently the UK cabinet contains 1 unelected member.

Fundamentally there is no difference on how much say you have in the members of either.

I didn't vote for a single cabinet member, neither did anyone in Leicester or the whole of Yorkshire, guess this means the cabinet is completely unrepresentative and undemocratic.

Jamie

I see your point in that respect but wouldn't you rather they handled the country's affairs rather than the EU? At least we would have a say where the money we do get back is spent - the WE here being the elected Government. If we, the people then don't like what they spend it on then we can boot them out. We CANNOT boot out the Fat Cats of the European Council.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Do you read before posting? Did I not say elected by Governments or the Parliament? OK so it's the member states which is not the common people so therefore they are NOT elected as far as we are concerned. Do you think these Governments / States / Members just put anyone in there? They put those who are gonna make them richer and us poorer. It's been that way since time began and always will be. The rich fat cats of Europe get richer whilst the Euro struggles and the 500 million Citizens get poorer. They are creaming it off. Do you really want to be part of that? London is now reminiscent of Dickensian times today with its poorer areas as with other Cities. The only people who benefit from the EU are the rich

If you think that leaving the EU will stop "fat cats" exploiting the poorer in society then think again. The move to Leave is not driven by some kind of social equality in the sense you imply. Rather the opposite will happen ..

The London property price rise driven exodus is not the fault of the EU. It is fuelled by this and previous Governments policies to attract the rich (at all costs) and to help them launder their billions.

If you think that the EU monies will be spent on funding the NHS and "helping the poor" then think again ..

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by ianch99

If you think that leaving the EU will stop "fat cats" exploiting the poorer in society then think again. The move to Leave is not driven by some kind of social equality in the sense you imply. Rather the opposite will happen ..

The London property price rise driven exodus is not the fault of the EU. It is fuelled by this and previous Governments policies to attract the rich (at all costs) and to help them launder their billions.

If you think that the EU monies will be spent on funding the NHS and "helping the poor" then think again ..

Again I did not say it would. At least we would have the say on where it's spent

Problem with debating this on forums is there are very few truly undecided it's a debate between two camps that already know their position and how they are going to vote and much like the politicians not doing much to help any undecided there might be. There are no real facts on what will happen if we leave the EU as it hasn't happened before it's all guesswork mainly driven by the initial starting position of the organisation's involved for most economists they prefer safe and steady so of course recommend staying in.

I think the best thing anyone can do is just vote on how they feel the EU has performed and whether they feel it's a greater good or bad, only thing I'd caution anyone on doing is voting on the basis of future meaningful reform because on that they have demonstrated that isn't really an option currently and will not be anytime soon without something seismic happening.

[passingbat]

Originally Posted by Hugh

context is all...

https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-a-...s-hoover.t330/

The situation/context may be different, but the principle and the message are still true (irrespective of who wrote it )

We are currently seeing it happen before our very eyes.

[heero_yuy]

Indeed. That's why I posted it. The rich and powerful love the EU but it's no friend of the working man that sees a race to the bottom in income.

[Big Brian]

I can't see the problem where voting is concerned. It's no secret the EU want more political integration and if you want that, vote remain. If you don't, vote leave regardless of the other considerations that is important. Also, if you are happy having immigrants forced on you vote remain, If not, vote leave. If you want the EU to control our finances, vote remain. If not, vote leave. If you believe the economists vote remain. If you believe the Brexit economists, vote leave. If you think Stronger in Europe lie the least then vote remain. If you think Vote Leave lie the least then vote leave. If you believe we'll be better off financially by remaining vote remain. if you believe we'd be better off without the EU vote leave. Simples

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Indeed. That's why I posted it. The rich and powerful love the EU but it's no friend of the working man that sees a race to the bottom in income.

I see it totally opposite: the EU is a better option for the working man

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Again I did not say it would. At least we would have the say on where it's spent

I am sure you said at one point that the NHS would benefit from money saved .. apologies if you didn't.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Mr K

The UK will be staying in the the EU whatever the result of this referendum. It won't come down to MPs defying the will of the electorate. There'll be a crisis EU summit, new offer (which will contain nothing new), UK economy slides dramatically in the meantime and people get a second chance to vote the right way in a few months time, having seen their mortgages payments shoot up and their pensions plummet. Referendums are only allowed if you vote the right way.

this drivel isn't working if you want your side to win you need to take a good look at your campaign and cut out the doom and gloom .

oh and you missed out ww3 that was probably just an oversight .

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well you can't really undermine existing wages if a country has a minimum wage. I guess the problem is self-employed tradesman? That's a bit of a mixed bag though because whilst they may undercut the existing traders sometimes the cost of those tradesman can be very high. Plumbers for example are crazy expense per hour. I also wouldn't say those people are the lowest earners either.

You're right though. We do need to do more to stop the richer getting richer at the poor and better distribute income in this country.

You can easily be undercut if you happen to earn more than the minimum wage which is what 99.9% of qualified tradesmen would have been.

How close to the minimum wage are you and how would you feel if an influx of cheap labour from the former Soviet state Undercutdamien was to flood the UK and do you out of a job? That's a 'right' we could all do without IMHO. It's no accident that those in favour of free movement generally seem to be from professions which don't suffer. Odd that eh?...

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Indeed. That's why I posted it. The rich and powerful love the EU but it's no friend of the working man that sees a race to the bottom in income.

I have thought that before and come election day it might sway me more than anything else to vote Leave