anti americanism fashionable

Originally Posted by dr wadd

I've always considered the concept that there are freedom loving people and those that are not such a trite piece of rhetoric. After all, aren`t the extremists just fighting for the freedom not to have their way of life dictated to them by the West?

What, as in Afghanistan, where until the US invasion the Taleban enjoyed the 'freedom' to deny education and liberty to half their population (i.e. the women), to deny citizens who disagreed with them the right to express that opposition or leave the country, and to thoroughly disrespect foreign cultures even when they are no threat to them, ably demonstrated by the decision to blow up a set of ancient Buddhist statues?

Originally Posted by dr wadd

I've always considered the concept that there are freedom loving people and those that are not such a trite piece of rhetoric. After all, aren`t the extremists just fighting for the freedom not to have their way of life dictated to them by the West?

As you are an expert in trite rhetoric I leave that to you. George W. Bush is entitled to say what he likes. Extremists in this case being terrorists want to impose their form of tyrrany on us. The terrorist are just that, they don't have mass popular support. Their methods vary and homicidal murder is their favourite m.o.

Are you going to contribute some hard cash to London police to help pay for the anti-Bush rent a mob protests?

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by towny

What, as in Afghanistan, where until the US invasion the Taleban enjoyed the 'freedom' to deny education and liberty to half their population (i.e. the women), to deny citizens who agree with them the right to express that opposition or leave the country, and to thoroughly disrespect foreign cultures even when they are no threat to them, ably demonstrated by the decision to blow up a set of ancient Buddhist statues?

Yes but Towny, you arn't seeing things clearly.....it's ok for the Taleban to do those things 'cos they arn't American(or western).
It seems like anything that is done to 'us' by 'them' is our own fault and we 'had it coming/deserved it' whereas anything that we do them gets the left wing liberal contingent bleating.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Gogogo

As you are an expert in trite rhetoric I leave that to you. George W. Bush is entitled to say what he likes. Extremists in this case being terrorists want to impose their form of tyrrany on us. The terrorist are just that, they don't have mass popular support. Their methods vary and homicidal murder is their favourite m.o.

Well put.

Originally Posted by towny

What, as in Afghanistan, where until the US invasion the Taleban enjoyed the 'freedom' to deny education and liberty to half their population (i.e. the women), to deny citizens who disagreed with them the right to express that opposition or leave the country, and to thoroughly disrespect foreign cultures even when they are no threat to them, ably demonstrated by the decision to blow up a set of ancient Buddhist statues?

And now, instead of the Taliban, we have what, exactly?

Well, a country that, apart from a US installed government that, in another time and place would have the word "puppet" prefixing it and which requires constant protection.

Large areas of the country that are being ruled by "war lords" ie people with a little imagination and a lot of guns.

A resurgance of growing opium poppies for the heroin trades.

Areas which are still being controlled by Taliban sympathisers.

Frequent death threats and attacks against womens' rights supporters.

The list goes on and on. And this has been going on for longer than the current Iraqi situation and doesn't show any signs of dying out soon, let alone there being any clear "exit strategy" for either country!!

Originally Posted by Gogogo

George W. Bush is entitled to say what he likes. Extremists in this case being terrorists want to impose their form of tyrrany on us.

You mean say things like "You're either with us or you're against us"?

Or how about "After praising nations like Bahrain, Morocco, and Oman for embracing reforms, the US leader scolded Iran -- which he once labelled part of 'an axis of evil' along with North Korea and Iraq -- and warned its leadership must follow suit or "lose its last claim to legitimacy."'

Or "But the president's remarks stretched beyond the Middle East, as he declared that the US "commitment to democracy is tested in Cuba and Burma and North Korea and Zimbabwe -- outposts of oppression in our world."

(Quotes from http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori.../56125/1/.html )

The terrorist are just that, they don't have mass popular support.

You mean like the mass popular support that Bush had from his "Coalition of the Willing. Who were they again? Let's see:

Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom and Uzbekistan.

Ah, yes. Some very notable players on the world stage there! And it's not as if any of them were offered bribes (oh, sorry, "financial support packages") to encourage them to sign up...!

Their methods vary and homicidal murder is their favourite m.o.

Hmm, is the same as using cluster bombs in civilian areas, or perhaps the bombing of water, sewerage and power infrastructure in the first Gulf War?

Are you going to contribute some hard cash to London police to help pay for the anti-Bush rent a mob protests?

Well, actually I am being *FORCED* to contribute hard cash to the London Police because a proportion of the five million pound cost is coming out of *MY* taxes!

And who exactly is "renting" this "mob" for the protests? As far as I am aware, those who are protesting are private citizens who wish to express their disagreement with the illegal policies and actions of the US (and UK) governments, not from any "anti-democratic" purpose, but *FOR* democratic purposes, something which certain people seem to have overlooked.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

It seems like anything that is done to 'us' by 'them' is our own fault and we 'had it coming/deserved it' whereas anything that we do them gets the left wing liberal contingent bleating.

Ah, another example of "reasoned debate"!

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Well put.

Why didn't you put it in a private reputation message, then?

What good do mutual self-congratulatory messages like that do to help the discussion along?

Originally Posted by Gogogo

As a Council Tax payer may I suggest that the people involved in the anti-Bush rent a mob contribute some hard cash towards the policing costs for their marches, Big mouth Ken Livingstone can also donate a few thousand pounds, normally he likes giving other peoples' money away.

President Bush is entitled to say what he likes, he and the USA is our ally and loves freedom as we do in the UK.

Being somewhat VERY Pro British, I have to admit, I was quite embarrassed to read the following, posted my an American working in this country, and I quote......

I lived in England for 16 years, returning to the US on day of all days, 9/11. I was in a public position for my years in England and had to deal with anti-American prejudice every day. There were even some encounters with the elderly that were driven by how American GIs behaved in England in WWII. Even my friends could not get past my being American when they would explain my character. It can make for a very lonely life continually checking how you behave as the perpetual "guest".
Henry Jansma, US

TBH that makes me feel very embarrassed for being a UK citizen.......

On the other hand, watching the USA inflict it's power on the rest of the world agitates me, maybe I will just sit on the fence for now

[darkangel]

Originally Posted by yesman

Being somewhat VERY Pro British, I have to admit, I was quite embarrassed to read the following, posted my an American working in this country, and I quote......


TBH that makes me feel very embarrassed for being a UK citizen.......

On the other hand, watching the USA inflict it's power on the rest of the world agitates me, maybe I will just sit on the fence for now

good point people here need to differentiate between being anti-bush administration and anti-American! unfortunately we still have have the rule Britannia ****e in our mentality and until we get over our own arrogance we should not accuse others of the same

Originally Posted by Graham

...Or how about "After praising nations like Bahrain, Morocco, and Oman for embracing reforms, the US leader scolded Iran -- which he once labelled part of 'an axis of evil' along with North Korea and Iraq -- and warned its leadership must follow suit or "lose its last claim to legitimacy."'...Or "But the president's remarks stretched beyond the Middle East, as he declared that the US "commitment to democracy is tested in Cuba and Burma and North Korea and Zimbabwe -- outposts of oppression in our world."

Actually, I think President Bush is quite correct. Dictatorships need to be dealt with and those who rule without respect to the UN Human Rights Charter should be punished. Incidentally, haven't you noticed the silence on human rights by the Gaddaffi led UN Human Rights Commission.

Originally Posted by Graham

...You mean like the mass popular support that Bush had from his "Coalition of the Willing. Who were they again? Let's see:Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom and Uzbekistan. Ah, yes. Some very notable players on the world stage there! And it's not as if any of them were offered bribes (oh, sorry, "financial support packages") to encourage them to sign up...!

I see little point in this, we were allied during the Second World War with some strange bedfellows: Joe Stalin's USSR, sometimes circumstances are like that. Some of the countries you mention are new democracies, one gets the impression you wish to belittle them due to their size, that's not very nice.

Originally Posted by Graham

Hmm, is the same as using cluster bombs in civilian areas, or perhaps the bombing of water, sewerage and power infrastructure in the first Gulf War?

No, not the same, homicidal terrorists murder deliberately as a matter of policy: men, women, chidren, mothers and babies, and even those at prayer such as the recent terrorist bombing of two synagoges in Turkey,;how on earth can you smugly say that it's the same as Allied forces bombing military targets, if civilians are killed or injured it's regretably accidental.

Originally Posted by Graham

Well, actually I am being *FORCED* to contribute hard cash to the London Police because a proportion of the five million pound cost is coming out of *MY* taxes!

Just my point, we are faced with HIGHER COUNCIL TAX bills simply because anti-American rent a mobs, encouraged by that idiot K. Livingstone searching for publicity inconvenience life in London. If you support anti-American protest why dont you put your money where your mouth is and help a little more by giving the police more cash.

Originally Posted by Graham

And who exactly is "renting" this "mob" for the protests? ...

Very likely many will be living on state benefits, some indeed it could be suggested may be funded by the G.L.A, K. Livingstone loves giving other peoples' money away,who knows?

[downquark1]

Actually, I think President Bush is quite correct. Dictatorships need to be dealt with and those who rule without respect to the UN Human Rights Charter should be punished.

Like..... G W Bush.

Did anyone watch news night last night? Bush's former speech writer, the author of 'why people hate america' and a liberal democrat baroness was there with Jeremy Paxman.

The American accused the BBC of biased.
The author said that the US keeps floating international law
The lib dem tried to keep the peace by saying both europe and america has it's bad point, and Britain likes to pick n mix.

Originally Posted by Gogogo

As you are an expert in trite rhetoric I leave that to you. George W. Bush is entitled to say what he likes. Extremists in this case being terrorists want to impose their form of tyrrany on us. The terrorist are just that, they don't have mass popular support. Their methods vary and homicidal murder is their favourite m.o.

It's so very easy for you to look at the effect and not the cause, does that make it easier to live with your conscience?

Originally Posted by Gogogo

Are you going to contribute some hard cash to London police to help pay for the anti-Bush rent a mob protests?

I think the statement I`ve quoted above indicates the level of reasoning you are bringing to the debate. Because a protest doesn`t serve your ideals they must be a rent-a-mob. Are you going to be donating some extra cash to cover the policing of Bush's visit, because protest or not, do you not think that there may be some extra security in place anyway?

Originally Posted by Jerrek

I wasn't aware my government supported the IRA. Mind providing some sources?

Yep here:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1563119.stm
http://www.adequacy.org/public/stori..._OFJhpwMj.html

This page also makes an interesting read and I feel is quite relavant to this thread.
http://www.newsviews.info/current1.html

Also for a light hearted dig at things.....

http://www.jokeindex.com/joke.asp?Joke=3463

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Graham

Ah, another example of "reasoned debate"!

Nevertheless that is the general tone of this thread......