[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[techguyone]

Not really, you don't often see Turkeys voting for Christmas do you.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I've been flip flopping over this for quite a while. I was initially remain, I crept into the leave camp for a few weeks, but now I'm back in remain.

The main reason being I am pretty much certain, in my own mind, that any deal to access the EU single market after we leave will result in us paying a similar amount of money that we do now, and have to agree to free movement. I also don't think the economy is strong enough at the moment.

I have concerns over the way the EU operates, but the way see it if you're out you're out. Whereas, if we stay in we can still see it out for a period of time. If it gets worse then we can always come out at a later date and we don't need a referendum to get out, just vote UKIP at the next available election as I'm sure EU exit will be No.1 on their manifesto list.

This is not good at all:

1. Any deal we reach for the single market will cost nowhere near what we pay now as we won't be paying for the upkeep of the EU, only for the right to trade. We don't know about free movement yet. It may be we have to accept a percentage.

2. The economy is strong enough to handle leaving the EU. Growth is slowing, yes but it's the same the world over and has nothing to do with being in the EU.

3. Dream on. This is a once in a lifetime vote and if you vote to remain you are stuck with it for at least 50 years unless a majority of the public demand a vote and that's not likely if they vote to remain. The EU is NOT going to reform for the better or for our benefit. Plans are afoot for a European Army and Police Force. This with closer Political and Economic integration will mean the UK will have less say in what goes on as they have opted out of these things and would either have to join or be left out in the cold.

No, it's better to get out now as you won't be able to do it within the next 50 years and by then it will be so integrated there will be no chance of getting out without losing financially or otherwise.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Hugh

If you can't tell the difference in scale and potential impact between one small graphic on one leaflet and tens of billions of dollars on marketing a product....

The scale is different; the principle isn't .

Originally Posted by Pierre

Norway pay into the EU 816 million Euro.

http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/Financia.../#.V02boFLwvIU

We pay £8.5 Billion net.

Norway Population 5.2 million
UK Population 65 million.

Fag packet calculation works out Norway £118 per head UK £130 per head

£12 difference

Norway hmph . Our economy is bigger, we have more trade clout. Losing our custom will hurt the EU. They're not that stupid.

Originally Posted by Pierre

I've been flip flopping over this for quite a while. I was initially remain, I crept into the leave camp for a few weeks, but now I'm back in remain.

The main reason being I am pretty much certain, in my own mind, that any deal to access the EU single market after we leave will result in us paying a similar amount of money that we do now, and have to agree to free movement. I also don't think the economy is strong enough at the moment.

I have concerns over the way the EU operates, but the way see it if you're out you're out. Whereas, if we stay in we can still see it out for a period of time. If it gets worse then we can always come out at a later date and we don't need a referendum to get out, just vote UKIP at the next available election as I'm sure EU exit will be No.1 on their manifesto list.

Whichever way you do end up voting I am pretty much voting to Remain for the same reasons you listed there in the 2nd paragraph. However like you it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the way EU does things that's deciding my vote, I think very few Remain voters don't think Leave has some good points. In the end for me I can't see what issues that affect me solves but I can see it causing new problem (i.e economic hit).

[Osem]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Interestingly, regions with the highest levels of immigration see the lowest support for UKIP with London being the most extreme example

Wouldn't that have a lot to do with the large number of people of immigrant origins in London? Where they're entitled to vote (and hence show their support or otherwise for UKIP) it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't support UKIP en masse. To properly assess UKIP's appeal in London you need to look at borough level and take into account the ethnic makeup of each.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Damien

In the end for me I can't see what issues that affect me solves but I can see it causing new problem (i.e economic hit).

A vote to remain is not a vote for status quo. The EU is changing and your democratic right of control of the issues that affect your everyday life will be virtually non-existent.

Our laws and democracy have served us rather well for hundreds of years; why give it up?

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Pierre

If it gets worse then we can always come out at a later date

I don't think we can. this is i, I think

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I've been flip flopping over this for quite a while. I was initially remain, I crept into the leave camp for a few weeks, but now I'm back in remain.

The main reason being I am pretty much certain, in my own mind, that any deal to access the EU single market after we leave will result in us paying a similar amount of money that we do now, and have to agree to free movement. I also don't think the economy is strong enough at the moment.

I have concerns over the way the EU operates, but the way see it if you're out you're out. Whereas, if we stay in we can still see it out for a period of time. If it gets worse then we can always come out at a later date and we don't need a referendum to get out, just vote UKIP at the next available election as I'm sure EU exit will be No.1 on their manifesto list.

That's pretty much my thinking to. Perhaps if leave hadn't played the same tune as remain with the lies and scaremongering they'd have secured my vote

---------- Post added at 17:34 ---------- Previous post was at 17:33 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Interestingly, regions with the highest levels of immigration see the lowest support for UKIP with London being the most extreme example

Yes it's very interesting that people almost untouched by Immigration are so against it

---------- Post added at 17:37 ---------- Previous post was at 17:34 ----------

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I don't think we can. this is i, I think

I said the same as pierre a few weeks back, we can only leave once but we can revisit leaving whenever the public wills it

[Jimmy-J]

I agree with Pat...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFt-pRIvL9E

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

That's pretty much my thinking to. Perhaps if leave hadn't played the same tune as remain with the lies and scaremongering they'd have secured my vote

Forget the shenanigans of Leave and Remain. Read Chris's post:

Originally Posted by Chris

Well you're not voting for the leave party or the remain party, you're voting on the future of the U.K. constitution. It's really worth ignoring the campaigns and doing some personal research and reading.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

Whichever way you do end up voting I am pretty much voting to Remain for the same reasons you listed there in the 2nd paragraph. However like you it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the way EU does things that's deciding my vote, I think very few Remain voters don't think Leave has some good points. In the end for me I can't see what issues that affect me solves but I can see it causing new problem (i.e economic hit).

Interesting that you've discounted the notion that the ticking financial timebomb in the EU is a bigger economic hit waiting to happen. The problems in Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy etc. haven't gone away and what makes you think that, if we stay in, we won't wind up suffering a worse hit - directly by being part of the club (bale outs) and indirectly?

I know I've said this before but given the growing social, economic and political chaos in Europe why would anyone think being in it would be less risky than getting out? If things were looking up I'd agree that it would make staying in less of a gamble but so many things are getting worse not better.

Having said that, at least you have a reason - IMHO basing how to vote on the tactics of one side or the other is a pretty poor reason.

[passingbat]

Originally Posted by Kursk

A vote to remain is not a vote for status quo. The EU is changing and your democratic right of control of the issues that affect your everyday life will be virtually non-existent.

Our laws and democracy have served us rather well for hundreds of years; why give it up?

So very true. The EU has an agenda for a United states of Europe; they don't even hide the fact.

The paltry concessions that David Cameron 'negotiated' shows how Britain has got no chance of halting that. The promise from David Cameron of no more integration is worthless; integration will come via the back door through secretly negotiated trade deals such as TTIP.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Kursk

The scale is different; the principle isn't .

Norway hmph . Our economy is bigger, we have more trade clout. Losing our custom will hurt the EU. They're not that stupid.

Of course yes, I mean they really bottled it when DC went looking for renegotiated terms on the threat of UK leaving. They absolutely caved in they were so scared.

Everybody quotes the BMW/AUDI/VW factor that Germany will want to sort out a deal. But look at it from the other foot. We'll still want to buy them, if there is a levy put on those cars because we're out of the EU do you think we're suddenly all going to start buying KIA's. No BMWs will just cost more, and those that can afford to buy new BMW's still will.

Likewise with Champagne (I don't buy French wine anyway, more of a new world man)

If we come out I don't think the EU will be rushing to sort out our FTA and I don't think they give us any special concessions either.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Likewise with Champagne (I don't buy French wine anyway, more of a new world man)

Nobody in their right mind drinks French wine: The whites are battery acid, the reds stewed teabags and as for the sparkling stuff it's just a liquidated ash tray.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Nobody in their right mind drinks French wine: The whites are battery acid, the reds stewed teabags and as for the sparkling stuff it's just a liquidated ash tray.

its jilly goolden -i;m getting ash tray old tea bag and a subtle hint of ever ready