anti americanism fashionable

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by darkangel

that still says nothing of their condition Britain has held people like this on many occasions

I agree. Keep chipping away m8, maby it will penetrate someday....

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by towny

Some of the comments that have been posted in this thread today go way beyond trying to understand the terrorist mind. They smack of apologetics, which I find distasteful in the extreme.

My thoughts exactly!

Originally Posted by Ramrod

The link you supplied about the red cross critisising 'conditions' at Guantanamo bay actually said:
No mention of 'conditions' there, just the legal process.....

It also happened to mention

"The open-endedness of the situation and its impact on the mental health of the population has become a major problem," he told the New York Times.

As I pointed out earlier, their mental health is part of their condition, and it reflects the current situation within the camp.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

You call the bombing of Laos an "accident"? .

Ok lets call it deliberate......listen closely children.....because you have been wrong in the past, it means you can never ever be right ever again

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

It also happened to mention

"The open-endedness of the situation and its impact on the mental health of the population has become a major problem," he told the New York Times.

As I pointed out earlier, their mental health is part of their condition, and it reflects the current situation within the camp.

Oh poor diddums, they are terrorists(or at the very least they left their home countries to fight in a war, sometimes against soldiers of their own nationality-which is treason). I am sure they can deal with the stress of being held in humane conditions with medical care and a complete absence of torture.
....oh my bleeding heart.....

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Oh poor diddums, they are terrorists(or at the very least they left their home countries to fight in a war, sometimes against soldiers of their own nationality-which is treason). I am sure they can deal with the stress of being held in humane conditions with medical care and a complete absence of torture.
....oh my bleeding heart.....

Actually, even the US administration doesn`t consider them to be terrorists. To do so would involve charging them with a crime, something that the Whitehouse doesn`t seem to be too keen on doing right now. Not all of those captured came from other countries, a good many of them were captured while defending their own country from a US led invasion.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Actually, even the US administration doesn`t consider them to be terrorists. To do so would involve charging them with a crime, something that the Whitehouse doesn`t seem to be too keen on doing right now. Not all of those captured came from other countries, a good many of them were captured while defending their own country from a US led invasion.

So your point is?

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Neither can I but we deplore their actions, we don't try to apologise for them.

I AM NOT APPOLOGISING FOR THE TERRIORISTS. As I have said they have a reason to hate the US, whether the reason is valid depends on the point of view. The point is the US media are protraying them as pure evil with no motive. And the US refuses to accept reasons why they might be disliked.

Jerrek is prime example: instead of saying 'these are unfortunate incidents, I for one regret them', he just pumps out excuse after excuse. Myself and Doctor Wadd have provided many reasons to dislike America, and instead of excepting them you just counter argument on and on. Whether our reasons can be proven wrong or correct is immaterial, the existance of all these reasons is reason to dislike the USA, where there's no smoke there is no fire.

Granted there will always be some reasons but the ones mentioned are far too many in my opinion.

The constant argument that prisoners would have been worse off in an iraqi prison is again immaturial, America preaches justice and freedom for all (isn't this a reason for liberating iraq) yet when they can take advantage of a loop hole to punish people they don't like they do it. Where is the justice in holding people with no repusentation or rights, some people there may have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time, but of course this might never be known. Also the issue that since they are not holding prisoners of war, they are holding foriegn citezens who have committed no crime in the US, the people's own country should be disiplinning them. I call it hipocracy.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

So your point is?

My point is that you are factually incorrect when you call them terrorists.

Taking the case of those who were actually from Afghanistan, fighting against a force that was invading their country, do you honestly believe it is fair to take them away from their country and detain them for an indefinite amount of time without being charged or legal representation?

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

My point is that you are factually incorrect when you call them terrorists.

Taking the case of those who were actually from Afghanistan, fighting against a force that was invading their country, do you honestly believe it is fair to take them away from their country and detain them for an indefinite amount of time without being charged or legal representation?

But some, if not all of them are terrorists.
As for legal representation, this is war. Did you see what happened to the CIA men in afghanistan (as they got their throats cut) where was their legal representation. Wher was the legal representation of the 9/11 victims, the Bali victims?

Originally Posted by Ramrod

But some, if not all of them are terrorists.
As for legal representation, this is war.

Can`t have it both ways I`m afraid, if you are going to argue that this is a war then they have to be classified as prisoners of war.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Did you see what happened to the CIA men in afghanistan (as they got their throats cut) where was their legal representation.

Covert agents get killed all the time, it is the nature of the job and a risk they accept. If, as you claim, this is a war, then they are casualties of war, nothing more.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

But some, if not all of them are terrorists.
As for legal representation, this is war. Did you see what happened to the CIA men in afghanistan (as they got their throats cut) where was their legal representation. Wher was the legal representation of the 9/11 victims, the Bali victims?

[holds help in pained expression] If this is a war they are prisoners of war and should be treated accordinally, if it is not a war they are citizens and should be treated accordingally. How can we critices people's disobediance of international law if we do it ourselves. We should 'set the good example' - treating the people nicely until trial isn't going to cause anymore deaths.

The whole 'innocent unitl proven guilty' rule applies here. When iraq does these things the USA is the first to cry 'foul'

[danielf]

Originally Posted by downquark1

I AM NOT APPOLOGISING FOR THE TERRIORISTS. As I have said they have a reason to hate the US, whether the reason is valid depends on the point of view. The point is the US media are protraying them as pure evil with no motive. And the US refuses to accept reasons why they might be disliked.

Jerrek is prime example: instead of saying 'these are unfortunate incidents, I for one regret them', he just pumps out excuse after excuse. Myself and Doctor Wadd have provided many reasons to dislike America, and instead of excepting them you just counter argument on and on. Whether our reasons can be proven wrong or correct is immaterial, the existance of all these reasons is reason to dislike the USA, where there's no smoke there is no fire.

Granted there will always be some reasons but the ones mentioned are far too many in my opinion.

The constant argument that prisoners would have been worse off in an iraqi prison is again immaturial, America preaches justice and freedom for all (isn't this a reason for liberating iraq) yet when they can take advantage of a loop hole to punish people they don't like they do it. Where is the justice in holding people with no repusentation or rights, some people there may have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time, but of course this might never be known. Also the issue that since they are not holding prisoners of war, they are holding foriegn citezens who have committed no crime in the US, the people's own country should be disiplinning them. I call it hipocracy.

I'd improve on the spelling (sorry DQ ), but I couldn't agree more. I've typed three replies to this thread tonight, but opted to not post them thinking they will only be met with 'you'd be worse off in an Iraqi jail' and similar one-liners.

As far as I'm concerned: The US is in breach of the Geneva Convention with their treatment of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners when it comes to legal matters. I.e: they are not charged, can be detained indefinitely, and if it comes to trial, they have no right to appeal.

If the US are going to lecture the world on human rights, they want to set that straight. And if Human rights really is an issue, why is there the soft approach to Burma, Laos, and a few others.

Note to Dubya: Burma has oil, rubies, and a lot of heroine goes through it. Rumour has it that the government profits from the heroine.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by downquark1

I AM NOT APPOLOGISING FOR THE TERRIORISTS. As I have said they have a reason to hate the US, whether the reason is valid depends on the point of view. The point is the US media are protraying them as pure evil with no motive. And the US refuses to accept reasons why they might be disliked.

So your beef is with howthe US media is portraying them???!

Jerrek is prime example: instead of saying 'these are unfortunate incidents, I for one regret them', he just pumps out excuse after excuse. Myself and Doctor Wadd have provided many reasons to dislike America,

So disliking a country is enough reason to go and do 9/11? Get real!

The constant argument that prisoners would have been worse off in an iraqi prison is again immaturial, America preaches justice and freedom for all (isn't this a reason for liberating iraq) yet when they can take advantage of a loop hole to punish people they don't like they do it. Where is the justice in holding people with no repusentation or rights, some people there may have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time, but of course this might never be known. Also the issue that since they are not holding prisoners of war, they are holding foriegn citezens who have committed no crime in the US, the people's own country should be disiplinning them. I call it hipocracy.

You can preach justice and freedom for all and still want to stay alive yourself.
If the countries judicial process is not up to the job then the US has to step in.
Having said all that, I do feel that Guantanamo bay is not the best way for the US to do things. It is however a damn sight better than the living conditions that US soldiers would get if the tables were turned.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

But some, if not all of them are terrorists.
As for legal representation, this is war. Did you see what happened to the CIA men in afghanistan (as they got their throats cut) where was their legal representation. Wher was the legal representation of the 9/11 victims, the Bali victims?

I'm reminded of a WW2 film here. One of the Brits suggests roughing one of the German prisoners up a bit, and the officer replies: Let's not. Isn't that what this war is about?