Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out - Page 10

nomadking · 10-05-2016, 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I thought we'd already established Hunt was lying when he said the strike was all about money

You were the one talking about 40% cuts in pay. If it's not about pay, what can it be about? The concessions from the Dept of Health have mainly been pay related. The hours related parts of the contract have been agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

No they aren't, what was it the shadow health secretary said no one with a gcse in maths can believe no junior doctor working within the legal limits will not lose money because the sums don't add up iirc

Chrysalis · 10-05-2016, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J

If we want the NHS to be open 24/7 then we will have to employ not just junior doctors but everyone else with specialist skills.Doctors need lab technicians,radiographers,nurses and all the other myriad professions that keep the NHS working Monday to Friday..plus the missing extra doctors and nurses/midwives the NHS currently has shortages of.

However that costs and trying to provide on a shoestring won't cut it..

Also the best way to keep people out of A&E on any day is to make sure we address the acute shortage of GPs..My friend has just made an appointment to see her GP about her sinus headaches but can't have an appointment until the 2nd of June.

I'm pretty sure Hunt isn't really interested a 24/7 NHS but it merely trying to find ways and means of introducing us to the benefits of a privatised system based on the US nightmare of a healthcare system...

And I'm more than willing to pay higher taxes to fund the NHS..

I feel for your friend, the insane headaches I had a few weeks back was sinus related, and the pain was absolute insanity. I can barely walk but I stood waiting outside my gp office to make sure I got an appointment that day on the tuesday it opened following the horrible 4 day easter holiday period. Really shocking for a GP to only offer a june date now, no same day appointments?

Also regarding 7 day services, its not quite what it seems e.g. if the nhs is open more days a week its not as if it will be used more, it simply prevents people waiting till the following monday, so e.g. GPs are most busy on mondays as there is a backlog of people who have had to wait over the weekend, so a 7 day nhs will sort of balance of the other 5 days.

This brings me to another point.

I wonder how much appointments would be saved at GPs if drugs were made not needing a prescription?

e.g. increase the dosage of co codamel a chemist can provide without doctor authorisation, allow other drugs that normally need a prescription and bam lots of workload gone from GPs. Anti biotics e.g.

ianch99 · 10-05-2016, 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Maybe we should start funding healthcare the same way the rest of the developed world does rather than in a manner emulated only by communist states.

Much of the rest of the first world may have a point with funding through a combination of single payer and private insurance.

As Hugh identified we spend about as much taxpayer money on healthcare as many of our peers but lack the private sector funding that compliments it elsewhere.

We should look at the best solution in our peer economies and see if these are a better fit than our current model which doesn't deliver the necessary funding.

As for Hugh's point, this seem to show that there are a number of our EU neighbours that spend more public monies on healthcare:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-percapita.svg

TheDaddy · 11-05-2016, 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking

You were the one talking about 40% cuts in pay. If it's not about pay, what can it be about? The concessions from the Dept of Health have mainly been pay related. The hours related parts of the contract have been agreed.

You've read the statement from the bma, it even says in there it's not all about pay

nomadking · 11-05-2016, 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You've read the statement from the bma, it even says in there it's not all about pay

As I pointed out, you were the one saying that the junior doctors were complaining about a supposed 40% drop in pay. I pointed out that using your sole example, they would probably end up earning more. I also asked the question, if not about pay, what is it that "deserves" a strike? Still unanswered, of course.

Chrysalis · 11-05-2016, 16:15

to add to my previous comment regarding anti biotics, this is what I would do.

1 - change some prescription drugs to no prescription needed. To relieve pressure on GPs.
2 - Add a system that these drugs when acquired from a chemist the nhs medical card and photo id needs to be presented.
3 - chemist clerk enters onto system drugs have been issued.
4 - repeat drugs cannot be issued for next 6 months without prescription.

so this prevents abuse.

TheDaddy · 11-05-2016, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking

As I pointed out, you were the one saying that the junior doctors were complaining about a supposed 40% drop in pay. I pointed out that using your sole example, they would probably end up earning more. I also asked the question, if not about pay, what is it that "deserves" a strike? Still unanswered, of course.

Well no not of course as it was answered days ago

junior doctors concerns extend far beyond pay

http://web2.bma.org.uk/pressrel.nsf/...3?OpenDocument

**Hugh** · 11-05-2016, 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Well no not of course as it was answered days ago

junior doctors concerns extend far beyond pay

http://web2.bma.org.uk/pressrel.nsf/...3?OpenDocument

tbf, the others are pretty wooly (like wanting world peace and love to all)

Quote:

“Junior doctors’ concerns extend far beyond pay, and our principle in talks will be to deliver a fair contract that does not discriminate against women or any other group, one which addresses the recruitment and retention crisis in the NHS and which provides the basis for delivering a world-class health service.

Those are all subjective, rather than objective.

And it's amusing the BMA talking about recruitment, when they were the ones in 2008 that stopped doctor training being expanded.

Osem · 11-05-2016, 17:39

... and if they can't get their way, rather than giving those they claim to care so much about an almost 'world class health service', they'll effectively make it even worse by resigning en masse and going to work abroad in countries which don't have an equivalent NHS...

nomadking · 11-05-2016, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Well no not of course as it was answered days ago

junior doctors concerns extend far beyond pay

http://web2.bma.org.uk/pressrel.nsf/...3?OpenDocument

That was just 4 days ago from today, even less days from when I asked the question.

Quote:

“The BMA has agreed to re-enter talks with the government on outstanding issues in this dispute, which include, but are not limited to, unsocial hours.
“Junior doctors’ concerns extend far beyond pay, and our principle in talks will be to deliver a fair contract that does not discriminate against women or any other group, one which addresses the recruitment and retention crisis in the NHS and which provides the basis for delivering a world-class health service.

And ALL of that is connected to pay. That still leaves the key issues of, if it's not about pay, what is it all about and does it justify strikes. They are being amply compensated for the changes in definitions of unsocial hours and have received a concession of an EXTRA 30%(on top of the 13.5%) for Saturdays when working more than one weekend in a 4 week period. By only asking for a 4-7% basic rise, the BMA are admitting that the 13.5% offer, financially covers Saturdays being treated as "plain time".

TheDaddy · 13-05-2016, 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking

That was just 4 days ago from today, even less days from when I asked the question.

Yes and I posted it on the day you asked the question as well

Quote:

And ALL of that is connected to pay. That still leaves the key issues of, if it's not about pay, what is it all about and does it justify strikes. They are being amply compensated for the changes in definitions of unsocial hours and have received a concession of an EXTRA 30%(on top of the 13.5%) for Saturdays when working more than one weekend in a 4 week period. By only asking for a 4-7% basic rise, the BMA are admitting that the 13.5% offer, financially covers Saturdays being treated as "plain time".

Staff recruitment and retention isn't all about remuneration you know

nomadking · 13-05-2016, 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Yes and I posted it on the day you asked the question as well

Staff recruitment and retention isn't all about remuneration you know

Well that's specific isn't it.

So what is, or isn't the new contract in relation to that? What has anybody, including the BMA said is required? And it all comes back to, does that justify a strike?

TheDaddy · 13-05-2016, 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking

Well that's specific isn't it.

So what is, or isn't the new contract in relation to that? What has anybody, including the BMA said is required? And it all comes back to, does that justify a strike?

It's pretty specific if you want a service at all at the end of the day and yes it does justify a strike in the opinion of their members who voted overwhelmingly in favour of strike action.

nomadking · 13-05-2016, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

It's pretty specific if you want a service at all at the end of the day and yes it does justify a strike in the opinion of their members who voted overwhelmingly in favour of strike action.

I REPEAT, "So what is, or isn't the new contract in relation to that?" It's a simple question. If it's the basis of the strike then it will have had be made public and widely known.

TheDaddy · 13-05-2016, 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking

I REPEAT, "So what is, or isn't the new contract in relation to that?" It's a simple question. If it's the basis of the strike then it will have had be made public and widely known.

So you're saying it's not forming part of the negotiations, wonder why the contracts legality is going to be questioned in court regarding discrimination if so.